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  • Progressivism: Still Dangerous After All These Years

    Love him or hate him, Glenn Beck has a point: Progressivism rejects America’s foundational principles. For the past one hundred years, progressive intellectuals and politicians have been desperately trying to sever Americans’ attachment to the principles of the Declaration of Independence—with its emphasis on human equality, natural rights, consent of the governed, and limited government—and instead embrace a more European model of governance. Progressives assert that America has advanced beyond the principles of the Declaration of Independence. All men were not created equal; some peoples are more historically advanced than others. Rights are not tied to human nature; government creates rights. The consent of the people is unnecessary for legislation; technical expertise should regulate every detail of life.
    Just read what the progressives wrote. As Ronald Pestritto notes in his latest Wall Street Journal op-ed on “Glenn Beck, Progressives, and Me,” Woodrow Wilson repeatedly lambasted the Founders’ institutions of government, especially the separation of powers, and instead praised a new “foreign science, speaking very little of the language of English or American principle” that would become the new administrative state. Theodore Roosevelt is more pointed:

    I do not for one moment believe that the Americanism of today should be a mere submission to the American ideals of the period of the Declaration of Independence . . . Such action would be not only to stand still, but to go back. American democracy, of course, must mean an opportunity for everyone to contribute his own ideas to the working out of the future. But I will go further than you have done. I have actively fought in favor of grafting on our social life, no less than our industrial life, many of the German ideals.

    Over the years, research on the progressive thought and influence has developed quite a pedigree. The Claremont Institute and its scholars have contributed extensive work on the roots of progressivism. Just peruse through the archives of the Claremont Review of Books to read about the 1912 election’s transformation of American Politics or Progressivism influence on Obama to name a few. The Claremont Review of Books’ editor Charles Kesler, whose work has been particularly influential on current experts on progressivism, recently appeared on Uncommon Knowledge to discuss the waves of progressivism and the grand liberal project.

    National Review has featured several other pieces on the progressivism. Check out their December 2009 cover story The Four Horseman of the Progressive Apocalypse, featuring essays on John Dewey, Richard Ely, Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr. and Herbert Croly. Or, read bout the harmful implications of progressivism; for instance, Tiffany Miller revealed that Progressives have left America with a tremendous legacy of debt; William Voegeli reminds Salon’s Michael Lind why liberalism is so dangerous.

    Of course, The Center for American Studies at Heritage continues to study the Progressives’ ideas and influence. We have explored what the tenants of progressivism, the empty rhetoric of change, and progressivism’s embrace of big government, bureaucratic tyranny,  and unlimited administration.

    These are still only a few of the many scholars, institutions, think tanks that explore the progressive intellectual tradition’s rejection of the Founding Principles and embrace of a new kind of governance. These critiques of progressivism have changed political discourse and have prompted Progressives to start whitewashing their intellectual history defending themselves, if they can. But if America continues down Europe’s well-trod path, don’t say there wasn’t a warning.

    Posted in First Principles [slideshow_deploy]

    43 Responses to Progressivism: Still Dangerous After All These Years

    1. Kevin H, College Par says:

      Progressive beleive in one thing, and that is making progress. Slow, steady progress. That is all this progressive wants. Conservatives want to keep things the same and never improve, never fix, just kick can down road and let someone else deal with the tough chocies – like health reform they criticize so much, yet when in power, did absolutely nothing to deal with the issue.

      If you were to go back and read speeches and writings from the founding fathers, you will find 'liberal' and 'liberality' all throughout, but nowhere is talk of staying static and no moving forward, as conservatives like. I also find it odd that Heritage states european society has run away from 'christian tradition' that helped create the ideals of the west. Since you are throwing out quotes, here are a few:

      As Mankind becomes more LIBERAL, they will be more apt to allow that all those who conduct themselves as worthy members of the community are equally entitled to the protections of civil government. I hope ever to see America among the foremost nations of justice and LIBERALity."

      – George Washington

      God is an essence that we know nothing of. Until this awful blasphemy is got rid of, there never will be any LIBERAL science in the world.

      – John Adams

      History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

      – Thomas Jefferson

    2. Billie says:

      Very cute at the end there.

      Progressivism isn't freedom. What's the purpose besides taking freedom away?

      It isn't the free thinking ideas of the people. It's ideas put on the people from government influence. It isn't speaking truth. It's covering it up., America doesn't need or deserve this progressivism. America needs the American Constitution! And strength in leadership to uphold!

    3. Don Harper says:

      Whether it is the liberalism of Lyndon Johnson or the

      progressivism of Alinskites like President Obama, it is

      a poison in the body of a civil society. Social justice

      is the vehicle by which it is spread, using tools like

      redistribution of wealth, political correctness, class

      warfare, and the paralyzing of large segments of society

      by making them victims of the productive. Freedom and

      prosperity cannot exist in a society where individualism

      is sacrificed on the altar of social justice.

    4. Johann Wolfgang von says:

      This article is an excellent, eye opening, fast look at a comparison/contrast between the founding principles of the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution and the ideals of the "progressives."

      What a good first step in giving data and resource information to those seriously interested in self education regarding politics, political agendas, historical perspectives, and the present day out workings of such "progressive" motives and thinking. Hopefully those seriously minded about preserving, protecting, and propagating the ideals of the founders of the USA will study these referred sites and their works well.

    5. Dennis Georgia says:

      We can see where this has gotten the nations of Europe, they are "ruled" by the elite, they are broke, riots in the street because the "guvmnet" had to cut back give away programs, increase the age of retirement, ration medical needs, and most anything you can think of. I do not think this country will stand for this type of "guvment". Under the current so called leadership of obama, reid and pelosi, they will force it down our throats and then tell us to like it. They have forced things down our throat already, helathcare bill, hate crimes, ministers are prohibited from preaching the truth according to Gods Word, the ALCU has sued over the display of the Ten Commants, Christmas scenes, stoped children from saying the pledge of alligance in schools, in front of national momuents, praying in front of the Supreme Court, the list goes on. Yet the same people have paid homeage to the muslim religion, the aethist, the illegals, as well as any splinter group they can find.

      These people do not care about, we the people, the Constitution, a free society or the security of America. WE MUST VOTE IN NOVEMEBR TO SAVE THIS COUNTRY, TO RESTORE WHAT MADE THIS COUNTRY GREAT, AND TELL THE POLITICANS WE WILL NOT GO DOWN WITHOUT A FIGHT.

    6. and2therepublic, ill says:

      The progressives in our government can be likened to the scribes and the Pharisees from when our Lord walked on earth. Of them he said, "For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, and love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, and greetings in the markets, and to be called of men,Rabbi, Rabbi." Matthew 23:4-7

    7. sunforester, beautif says:

      My understanding of one pillar of progressivism is: "let the experts decide and run the show – who cares what the moldy old Constitution says and the rabble thinks – it's for their own good anyway, whether they believe it or not." Obviously a PhD from Harvard instantly confers the expert seal of approval, and all those Beltway czars and activist judges have been deemed the right kind of experts to fix our nation's woes for our own good, whether we believe it or not.

      I am fortunate enough to be a legal expert, which definitely means that I am not in charge of making any decision whatsoever. What I am tasked to do is educate the trier of fact (jury, judge) about the special technical details of the case to be considered when all the facts of the case are presented. I try to do that in plain English, using analogies that everyone can understand to get the information across clearly and accurately.

      If the issue is about how fast the poorly mixed concrete dried or where that bullet came from, I don't make the decision about who is or isn't guilty or at fault – I just tell the people as much about that concrete or bullet so that their decision is well informed and more likely to be the better one. That is exactly the way that all government experts should act – "tell we the people what we need to know about what you experts know, so that we can make good decisions."

      Separate the expert from the decision, just like we separate how our laws are made, adjudicated and enforced. Perhaps we should put a label on a Harvard PhD that reads: "For Advisory Use Only – Don't Put Me in Charge."

    8. and2therepublic, ill says:

      Kevin H, College Park, MD, Sir, would you care to inform us in which documents the quotes you have found are located. Here are some of my favorites from the same founders along with the documents you will find them in:

      "You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are." – George Washington – From his speech to the Delaware Indian Chiefs – May 12, 1779.

      "The moment the idea is admitted into society that property is not as sacred as the laws of God, and that there is not a force of law and public justice to protect it, anarchy and tyranny commence. If 'Thou shalt not covet' and 'Thou shalt not steal' were not commandments of Heaven, they must be made inviolable precepts in every society before it can be civilized or made free." – John Adams – A Defense of the American Constitutions – 1787.

      "The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time; the hand of force may destroy, but cannot disjoin them." – Thomas Jefferson – Summary View of Rights of British America – August, 1774.

    9. Zack says:

      Conservatism:

      -your against a religious freedom (mosque 2 block from ground zero)

      -your against Healthcare reform(did not pass and blocked it for 30 years now)

      -your against Wallstreet reform(same as before)

      -your against gays openly serving in the Military and protecting our freedom(dadt)

      -your against Medicare(constanst legislative opposition)

      -your against Medicade(same as before)

      -your against Social Security(same as before)

      -your against Government Grants for tuition(constant legislative opposition)

      -your against children of Illegals to live here(constitutional ammendment)

      -your against all Immigration(all illegals should leave "our" country)

      -your against the the 14th ammendment(speaks for itself)

      -your against the 1st ammendment(mosque, gays, on and on and on, etc.)

      -your against any and all possible regulation and oversight for the private sector(not a single regulatory bill fro 12 years of congressional control)

      -your against unemployment benefits at any measure(extensions, or benefits all together)

      -your against Islamic Culture(its evil or bad for the country, all led by conservative media fear mongering)

      -your against Muslim Americans(same as before)

      -your against all media that is not extremely conservative(using the liberal media scapegoat)

      -your against providing assistance to other countries that have had natural disasters(Haiti)(they can't handle their money so screw them)

      -your against any other opinion but your own(im right and your wrong regardless of facts presented)

      -your against rational thought(speaks for itself)

      -your against the act of reason(speaks for itself)

      What exactly is Conservatism for, aside from attacking and being against every single thing that this President is trying to do and what has been done already?

      uh oh…i predict more "talking points" from Billy about how I can't think for myself or how he thinks the government is magically controlling my thoughts and secretly trying to enslave the entire country!

    10. Anonymous Howard says:

      Thanks for taking on the Progressives and their dangerous ideas, such as direct election of Senators, women's suffrage, consumer protection, child labor laws, anti-trust laws, workers' rights, human rights in general, equality and democracy.

    11. Billie says:

      Good prediction Zack!

      Conservatism distorted by Zack with personal retort: :

      -your against a religious freedom (mosque 2 block from ground zero)

      Conservatives are for civility and honest, people.

      -your against Healthcare reform(did not pass and blocked it for 30 years now)

      Conservatives respect personal health care to be ones own with few exceptions.

      -your against Wallstreet reform(same as before)

      Conservatives are against any private sector bailouts and respect the private sector businesses to be free to use their intelligence to reform themselves.

      -your against gays openly serving in the Military and protecting our freedom(dadt)

      Conservatives respect the privacy of individuals, where personal preference is of NO SIGNIFICANCE.

      -your against Medicare(constanst legislative opposition)

      Conservatives are for free markets.

      -your against Medicade(same as before)

      Conservatives are for free markets.

      -your against Social Security(same as before)

      Conservatives are against government corruption.

      -your against Government Grants for tuition(constant legislative opposition)

      Conservatives are against government education mandating standards of education. Government wants money to teach what the mind can learn on it's own. To be rudely specific, government wants to teach 5 year olds, masturbation.

      -your against children of Illegals to live here(constitutional ammendment)

      Conservatives are against parents that put their children in harms way to exploit for sympathy and government favoring their expense to the innocent tax payers who are of no interest and receive no benefits…only burdens and hardships oh, and death.

      -your against all Immigration(all illegals should leave “our” country)

      Conservatives respect all immigrants who choose America for good intentions, legally. Everyone has a right in America to see what they can do for themselves.

      -your against the the 14th ammendment(speaks for itself)

      Conservatives are against the distortion and misinterpretation of the 14th amendment.

      -your against the 1st ammendment(mosque, gays, on and on and on, etc.)

      Conservatives respect the 1st amendment to be applied to all without discrimination and under civil law.

      -your against any and all possible regulation and oversight for the private sector(not a single regulatory bill fro 12 years of congressional control)

      Conservatives are for necessary regulations and HONEST OVERSIGHT.

      -your against unemployment benefits at any measure(extensions, or benefits all together)

      Conservatives appreciate unemployment benefits up to a point of influence to get a job.

      -your against Islamic Culture(its evil or bad for the country, all led by conservative media fear mongering)

      Conservatives are against ALL who's beliefs are to kill human life/.

      -your against Muslim Americans(same as before)

      There's no such thing as Muslim Americans.

      -your against all media that is not extremely conservative(using the liberal media scapegoat)

      Conservatives are against all media that neglects to tell the whole story in truth.

      -your against providing assistance to other countries that have had natural disasters(Haiti)(they can’t handle their money so screw them)

      Conservatives give generously to those in dire straights around the world by freedom of choice.

      -your against any other opinion but your own(im right and your wrong regardless of facts presented)

      Conservatives are against intentional ignorance.

      -your against rational thought(speaks for itself)

      Conservatives are for free thinking minds and respect those that use theirs.

      The problem with many people, including Zack and the president in this country, is they define opinions as fact and believe their theatrics over the facts. But that is a way to condition the mind . pres says: "the American people want this!" Zack says "conservatives ARE AGAINST bla bla bla. Disrespecting honest facts and opinions.

      Silly man, Zack. Do you really think I'd call you sweetie if I were a man?

      You and your government conditioned mind have been debating a woman.

      But you have my permission to be mistaken.

    12. Pingback: » Daily Dose – September 22, 2010

    13. Ben, SC says:

      Liberals such as Kevin commit one of their biggest mistakes whenever they attempt to portray the Founders' ideology as being harmonious with their current "progressive" mindset.

      (If the Founders believed as such, they would have been content with the tyranny of the British crown and there would have been no revolution, no Constitution–and no Woodrow Wilson or Teddy Roosevelt–or Obama!– to find faults in it.)

      http://www.foundersalmanac.org

    14. Zack says:

      "Conservatives are for civility and honest, people"

      -if your against a mosque in new york, your against religous freedom. plain and simple.

      "Conservatives respect personal health care to be ones own with few exceptions"

      -who is taking your healthcare away? who is taking your personal decision away?

      conservatives have done nothing for healthcare reform for over 30 years during all

      the warnings. answer that?

      "Conservatives are against any private sector bailouts and respect the private sector businesses to be free to use their intelligence to reform themselves"

      -reform themselves? like they have been doing for decades now without government intervention, now leading to a recession. no bailouts, so millions of job losses, higher unemployment, a much worse economy is ok with you?

      "Conservatives respect the privacy of individuals, where personal preference is of NO SIGNIFICANCE"

      -oh really? so your ok to repeal dadt? or you thinks its ok for the military to force someone to shutup about their sexual preference?

      "Conservatives are for free markets"

      -really, oh, except for that pesky medicare part d that was passed by conservatives. and you are ok with seniors going broke due to unaffordability in the healthcare market. really?

      "Conservatives are for free markets'

      -again, so just let citizens go broke and become subject to the health industry monopolies?

      "Conservatives are against government corruption"

      -social security is government corruption? will you give your social security checks back when you start receiving them?

      "Conservatives are against government education mandating standards of education. Government wants money to teach what the mind can learn on it’s own. To be rudely specific, government wants to teach 5 year olds, masturbation"

      -wait, so your against government grants for college students or for them? so public schools should be abolished? find me one example of where the "government wants to teach 5 year olds, masturbation? your debate has become insane.

    15. Zack says:

      "Conservatives are against parents that put their children in harms way to exploit for sympathy and government favoring their expense to the innocent tax payers who are of no interest and receive no benefits…only burdens and hardships oh, and death"

      -so all children of "illegal" immigrants should be forced back to their own country? is that how you would handle it?

      "Conservatives respect all immigrants who choose America for good intentions, legally. Everyone has a right in America to see what they can do for themselves"

      -what about your ancestors that forced out the original owners of this land? are you not of english ancestory? YOUR an immigrant. or are you not, because you were born here right? but your ancestors killed native americans and stole their land. thats history, not my opinion, so who are the real immigranst in this country aside from every single person here? so you can stay here but the children of illegal immigrants like YOU cant stay here right?

      "Conservatives are against the distortion and misinterpretation of the 14th amendment"

      -you stated misinterpretation, so now you have to explain misinterpretation. which part? waiting..?

      Conservatives respect the 1st amendment to be applied to all without discrimination and under civil law.

      -if your against same sex marriage and a mosque in new york then your are against the 1st ammendment. plain and simple. or are you not against those things?

      "Conservatives are for necessary regulations and HONEST OVERSIGHT"

      -now thats my favorite one! name one bill that conservatives have passed for housing market reform for the last 14 years? just one bill? and tell me exactly what "honest oversight" is?

      "Conservatives appreciate unemployment benefits up to a point of influence to get a job"

      -but when should it run out? what is your decision on when they should stop extending unemployment benefits? I'm actually in agreement with you on this one!

      "Conservatives are against ALL who’s beliefs are to kill human life/"

      -so all muslims or anything regarding Islamic culture stands for "killing human life"? you didn't actually write that did you?

    16. Zack says:

      "There’s no such thing as Muslim Americans"

      -in regard to whichever country they are from. you can use the term iraqi americans, iranian americans. but what is your TRUE felling about muslims that live in america since your so well versed on them?

      "Conservatives are against all media that neglects to tell the whole story in truth"

      -then your against fox news, the heritage foundation, townhall.com, hannity, coulter, beck, palin, limbaugh, gingrich, etc. right? they all, every single day, for 24 hours a day lie, stretch the truth, misinform, and lie, lie and lie some more. are you talking about that media?

      "Conservatives give generously to those in dire straights around the world by freedom of choice'

      -so the government should not get involved in helping other countries with natural disasters? you against using your tax dollars to assist other countries?

      "Conservatives are against intentional ignorance"

      -have you looked at the leaders in your party? have you read some of the things you wrote?

      "Conservatives are for free thinking minds and respect those that use theirs"

      "The problem with many people, including Zack and the president in this country, is they define opinions as fact and believe their theatrics over the facts. But that is a way to condition the mind . pres says: “the American people want this!” Zack says “conservatives ARE AGAINST bla bla bla. Disrespecting honest facts and opinions"

      -and let me ask you, which part of any debate whether it be this one, or any other blog on heritage have you provided one single fact backed by evidence? just show me one instance? when i say conservatives are against many things that i listed, im backed by decades of legislative and economic history from conservatives and that is pure FACT. and you can't lump facts and opinions together. they are two completley different things.

    17. Zack says:

      "Silly man, Zack. Do you really think I’d call you sweetie if I were a man?

      You and your government conditioned mind have been debating a woman.

      But you have my permission to be mistaken"

      -im not sure how your sexual orientation has anything to do with this deabte. let me remind you. I demolished you in the debate about tax cuts and just did it again on this blog. you did not, nor will you ever answer any of the questions I asked. you didn't do it in the last debate and i doubt you will do it now. unless you explain your "talking points" you can never win a single debate or let anyone know where you are getting your information from. You use nothing but "talking points" "opinions" and very akward personal attacks against me. All of these things show your desperate attempt at debate and you have once again failed miserably. I really, truly expect for you to not answer a single question i asked. stop defending conservatism and start presenting answers and facts backed by legislative and economic history, sources and links. otherwise, your wasting you own time.

    18. Zack says:

      oh, and Heritage. are you still planning to use the "we can't post comments that are larger then the blog itself" scapegoat again? Again, I guess that rule only applied to me last time. Pathetic. truly pathetic!

    19. Zack says:

      Ive read some of the other comments you have left on other blogs on this website. You are so far extreme rightwing and have such a unwarranted hatred for this president without providing evidence or substance as to why. It's all "talking points" Seriously, you are against every single thing that this President have done or will do, every single thing. Do you not see that that extreme, blind partisanship takes away all of your credibility. You have been sucked up, along with many, many other people into the fear mongered, false movement and Im truly dissapointed that people think the way you do. This kind of thinking the the root of all the problems in this country. This hate filled, blind partisanship. Seriously, i have a test for you. Tell me just one thing that you credit President Obama for. Just one thing? If you can tell me one thing that the President has done to help this country I will leave you alone, but for now its becoming borderline insanity! Your up, and for heavans sake, please have substance.

    20. Edwin, CA says:

      An absolutely great article.

      Why there are still progressives that believe they will be able to maintain control over their leaders once put in power and that despite all of the failed progressivism throughout history, that this time, these people, won't screw it up again, is beyond all logic and reason.

      Progressivism is nothing more then Slow-Communism – a means to that end.

      Here is a vision of what America is _today_ under progressivism: http://www.cafepress.com/emoedesigns

    21. Billie says:

      You must have a government job to waste all that time repeating yourself in so many different ways? You seem to be losing grip on your insanity. Reaching higher levels of desperation.

      I hoped you had more dignity to respect your employer you say, is of the private sector and have the time you spend here, deducted from your pay.

      Zack, slap yourself in the face. You are refusing all factual opinions with distortion. You refuse to put two and two together as if you simply can't. Which is why I conclude you are government educated, silly man.

      We mourn fools as they have no access to intelligence.

    22. Billie says:

      civil, honest people are people of decency. People of decency consider the sensitivities of others. Mosques are free to be built anywhere they are allowed. Acceptance is irrelevant.

    23. Zack says:

      So Billie,

      Please answer just this one queston. Are you for, or against the Community Center with a Mosque 2 blocks from Ground Zero. Simple. For or Against? No spin, no talking points, just answer the question.

      Keep in mind, after I stated this question regarding conservatives before you responded with..

      “Conservatives are against ALL who’s beliefs are to kill human life/”

      -are progressives then for all who's beliefs are to kill human life?

      -what exactly are you trying to get at here? I would love to know.

    24. Billie says:

      I am against a Mosque disguised as a "community center" two blocks away from ground zero, who's intent it is to show victory. If it isn't the intent, there would be no problem respecting the sensitivities of others. Muslims involved, made it a problem. Spin away Zack.

    25. Billie says:

      …and why would you suggest such a thing about progressives?

    26. Zack says:

      Disguised? How? It is a community center with a Mosque. It has a swiming pool, recreational center, prayer rooms and study groups just like every other religous building that is inside a community center. They wish to have a Mosque inside because they can just like any christian church that has sunday school classes inside a community center. It's available so they use it. How is this disguised?

      Ok, so you are against a community center with a Mosque because it shows victory? Victory for what? Where did you get that information from? The intent is the same as any other religous building to be built anywhere they please within the laws of property, zoning and building permits which they already have. They pray, eat, drink and converse with one another regrading the Qur'an and their religion.

      Sensitivities of others? How is building a community center with a Mosque not respecting anyone's sensitivities? Is being against a religous building because of your own personal ignorance in Muslims or Islamic Culture nothing but disrespect for them? Muslims involved, made it a problem? really? Your against it, fox news is against it, most if not all conservatives and republicans are against it. What are you basing your "being against" on anyways? Why are you really against it? They have all absolute rights to build it their. And the only problem is the people against it, including yourself. I have no spin. There is no spin following the constitution and religious rights. The spin seems to be yours and yours alone.

      Besides, the only place to get negative information regarding the community center with a Mosque, Muslims and the Islamic Culture as a whole is conservative media, espically Fox News. Its a shame that you buy into that false, fear mongering information.

      I stated-

      "your against Islamic Culture(its evil or bad for the country, all led by conservative media fear mongering)"

      Then YOU stated-

      "Conservatives are against ALL who’s beliefs are to kill human life/"

      -so Islalmic Culture is based on beliefs to kill human life????????

      -From what I see, if your against the community center with a Mosque because you think Muslims have beliefs to kill human life, and most if not all progressives(including myself) support the community center with a Mosque, then that must mean that progressives support the beliefs to kill human life right? Your digging yourself a huge ditch.

      -What else could you possibly be saying?

      -Have you studied Islamic Culture, the Qur'an at all?

      I think I know exactly what you really think about Muslims even if you choose not to share and that is the root of all hatred, bigotry, ignorance and problems with this country. If that is not the case then speak now or forever hold your tongue.

      I'm beyond sickened by conservative media and idiots that know nothing about Islamic Culture demonizing an entire group of people based on 19 terrorists from 3 different countries on 9/11. Its just so dissapointing to see such hatred and ignorance.

      And you attack me for not being a "real man" and not "believing in indivudual liberty"? Look in the mirror.

    27. Zack says:

      This will keep you busy for a while im sure..

      #1-Tell me why most conservatives are against the proposed Islamic Community Center that has a Mosque near Ground Zero?

      #2-What about the Mosque that has been there, 4 blocks away from Ground Zero, for years now?,

      #3-The Mosque in the Pentagon?

      #4-The other Mosque facilities and community centers across the country?

      #5-Do all Muslims wish to destroy America?

      #6-Did these terrorists on 9/11 represent all Muslims across the world, espically in America?

      #7-Did many, many Muslims from all over the world not Condemn the acts of these 19 individuals on 9/11?

    28. Billie says:

      #1 Already did.

      #2 Isn't posing a problem although you're willing to make it one.

      #3 Do not care

      #4 A community center opened to the public should not include specific religious beliefs. It's imposing and infiltrating. It also suggests with the term "community center" that it won't be entirely, privately funded!

      #5 Muslims that hate America

      #6 the Muslims of 9/11 represent all those who dedicate their lives following the Koran and instructions of Mohammad.

      #7 "Condemn" the acts? you use condemn as a special word of interest to capitalize it in the middle of a sentence. What are your beliefs silly, scary man?

      Witnessed more Muslims celebrating it in America and overseas than any one Muslim condemning it.

      Oh it's an "Islamic community center?" That's even funnier!

    29. Anonymous Howard says:

      Zack, you forgot one important question:

      * Who is showing "sensitivity" to the families of the Muslims who were murdered by terrorists on 9/11?

      Yes, innocent Muslims were killed at the WTC as they went about their normal lives. The percentage of murder victims at WTC who were Muslim was about the same as the percentage of US citizens who are Muslim (just under 1%).

      Also, the Manhattan Masjid Mosque, which is four blocks from Ground Zero pre-dated the WTC. When America was attacked, ALL Americans were attacked, and that includes millions of Muslims.

    30. Zack says:

      Howard,

      I do appreciate your comment, but im still confused. Are you for or against the community center with a mosque 2 blocks from ground zero?

      So Billie, any more bigoted, racist, ignorant comments?

    31. Billie says:

      Hi Julie,

      I was wondering if you might have a comment submitted by myself last Thursday, in special regard to Zack's comment. If possible could you please post it without posting this? Thank you.

    32. Anonymous Howard says:

      @Zack, I wasn't trying to be vague, so let me try to clarify:

      People who are against a so-called "ground-zero mosque" on the basis that it is insensitive to the victims of terrorist attacks are forgetting (or deliberately ignoring) that Muslims were themselves victims of the same terrorist attacks.

      Muslims are a part of America. Islam is the third largest religion in the U.S. Mosques existed in the ground-zero area before the World Trade Center did. The attack on the WTC was an attack on ALL Americans, including Christians, Jews, Muslims, atheists and anyone else who is a U.S. citizen. No demographic group in the U.S. can claim to have been more victimized than any other.

      Protesting a mosque in downtown Manhattan because a handful of terrorist murderers claimed to be Muslim is just as idiotic as protesting a Christian chapel near the Oklahoma City National Memorial.

    33. Billie says:

      1-Tell me why most conservatives are against the proposed Islamic Community Center that has a Mosque near Ground Zero? Already did. Tell me why it's so difficult for Muslims to see the sensitivities of others? FYI: The reason "community center" is not appropriate as it implies it's funded by tax dollars and if it's funded by tax dollars no personal religious beliefs can affiliate as freedom is at ones own expense.

      #2-What about the Mosque that has been there, 4 blocks away from Ground Zero, for years now? What about it? Who's making it a problem?

      #3-The Mosque in the Pentagon? Again, who's making it a problem?

      #4-The other Mosque facilities and community centers across the country?

      Irrelevant

      #5-Do all Muslims wish to destroy America? Those that voice their hatred and their intent, leads to unknown.

      #6-Did these terrorists on 9/11 represent all Muslims across the world, espically in America? Unsure, I am not a Muslim nor do I speak for them.

      #7-Did many, many Muslims from all over the world not Condemn the acts of these 19 individuals on 9/11? Yes, Muslims condemned the acts of these Muslim terrorists and condemned the words of the Koran that instructs these murderers to kill the infidel. Muslims who condemn the beliefs, who are converting to Christianity.

      You seem to have a special interest in the word condemn as you capitalized it in the middle of a sentence? hmm…

    34. Billie says:

      Some Muslims voice their condemnation but then trail off into excusing…

    35. Zack says:

      Howard,

      Thank you. You are exactly right. Good luck trying to explain that to just about every single person that follows this website. And give it a few days, you are bound to be attacked by someone on this blog because you stand up for religous freedom, tolerance, the 1st ammendment and the constitution. It has been far too long to see someone make the slightest bit of sense on this website. I might just throw a party here at work celebrating the fact that we still have people in this country with common sense! Conservative media sources just seem to pull information out of thin air without a single fact to back anything up. That is basically the entire motivation behind conservative media-(FEAR MONGERING) What I can't understand is, what happened to just being conservative without all the fear mongering, lies, conspiracy theories, broad talking points, racism and bigotry? Conservatism is ok and has brought forth many great ideas but websites like this, fox news and conservatives all around this country destroy conservative credibility. It's a sad thing to see. What most conservatives don't understand is people like me(democrats/progressives/liberals) want ideas and moderate policy from conservatives, but they have moved so far to the right, any form of reasoning or negotiation is impossible. It has become insane, and that is just a pure a simple fact.

      Billie is a prime example by saying "Muslims involved, made it a problem"

      -Muslims want a place to pray, worship, eat, drink, study and converse. They have the constitutional rights, funding, building, property and zoning permits….how the hell is that making a problem? Again, borderline insanity!

      -And Howard, if your are a conservative, thank you for giving me the slighest bit of hope for possible political unity and progress! And please pardon me if you take my comments regarding conservatism offensive. I gave up on sympathy a long time ago.

    36. Zack says:

      Billie, you are running in circles!

      #1-No, you did not answer the question.

      you stated-

      "I am against a Mosque disguised as a “community center” two blocks away from ground zero, who’s intent it is to show victory"

      then I asked-

      -Victory for what? Where did you get that information from?

      -and how are they disguising it? It is a community center. How is that disguised?

      so NO, you didn't answer anything. Try again.

      you stated-

      "Tell me why it’s so difficult for Muslims to see the sensitivities of others?

      -sensitivies? how is building it unsensitive? what does having a community center with a Mosque have to do with sensitivity? Did all Muslims attack the WTC's?

      -read Howard's comment-

      "Protesting a mosque in downtown Manhattan because a handful of terrorist murderers claimed to be Muslim is just as idiotic as protesting a Christian chapel near the Oklahoma City National Memorial"

      -I couldn't have said it better. Do you have a answer for that Billie?

      you stated-

      "FYI: The reason “community center” is not appropriate as it implies it’s funded by tax dollars and if it’s funded by tax dollars no personal religious beliefs can affiliate as freedom is at ones own expense"

      -you can only use federal dollars on secular programs. all tax-funded work must be and be deemed purely secular in nature. Community-serving religious nonprofits(such as the proposed community center 2 blocks from ground zero) that serve the community with a swimmng pool, recreational center, etc. are usually concentrated in urban America and can be funded by tax dollars. The Mosque itself will be privately funded. It IS a community center with Mosque inside so what's your point? Your idea of what is appropriate is your own problem. I have actually been to at least 5 christian community centers with churches, prayer rooms, chapels, scripture study rooms, etc. inside the center that are privately funded, the community center itself was funded by tax dollars to serve the best interest of the community with proper permits. Most of the time, the community center was built before any section of that center is deemed non-secular and once any church decides to place anything or claim(fund) any section to be non-secular, it is prohibited from tax dollars. You should do a little more research instead of just throwing out jumbled up opinions.

    37. Zack says:

      #2- I stated-

      "what about the Mosque 4 block from ground zero?"

      you stated-

      "What about it? Who’s making it a problem"

      -YOU are making it a problem. How far exactly does a community center with a Mosque have to be away from ground zero to make you feel "comfortable" so 4 blocks is ok but not 2?

      #3- I stated-

      "The Mosque in the Pentagon?"

      you stated-

      "Again, who’s making it a problem?"

      -YOU are making it a problem. Why are YOU making it are problem for a community center with a Mosque 2 blocks from ground zero but not 4 blocks away, or the Mosque at the Pentagon. What is the difference? Distance?

      #4- I stated-

      "The other Mosque facilities and community centers across the country?"

      you stated-

      "Irrelevant"

      -really? why is that irrelevant? You are against the community center with a mosque 2 blocks from ground zero so why not be against every single Mosque in the country?

      #5- I stated-

      "Do all Muslims wish to destroy America?"

      you stated-

      "Those that voice their hatred and their intent, leads to unknown"

      -who are you talking about!? explain yourself. so all Muslims voice hatred and their intent to whom? where is your evidence? no, your "unknown" is your ignorance and hatred for Muslims as a whole.

    38. Zack says:

      #6- I stated-

      "Did these terrorists on 9/11 represent all Muslims across the world, espically in America?"

      you stated-

      "Unsure, I am not a Muslim nor do I speak for them"

      -your unsure? so you just assume all Muslims are happy that 19 individual terrorists distorted and insutled their religion by attacking the WTC's and killing 3,000 innocent people(including Muslims)? gosh, conservative logic and fear mongering is SO predictable!

      #7- I stated-

      "Did many, many Muslims from all over the world not Condemn the acts of these 19 individuals on 9/11?"

      you stated-

      "Yes, Muslims condemned the acts of these Muslim terrorists and condemned the words of the Koran that instructs these murderers to kill the infidel. Muslims who condemn the beliefs, who are converting to Christianity"

      Now you see, that is your biggest problem. You are so far beyond ignorant to the Qur'an and Islamic Culture. You are so perfectly fear mongered into not trusting muslims because of what you hear through conservative media

      you stated-

      "You seem to have a special interest in the word condemn as you capitalized it in the middle of a sentence? hmm…"

      -what does that have to do with anything?

      Billie,

      Have you read the Qur'an?

      Have you studied Islamic Culture?

      Have you studied tax laws based on secular and non secular zoning permits?

      Are you aware that tax dollars fund thousand of christian community centers across the country?

      Have you any Muslim friends?

      Have you had any experience with Muslims?

    39. Zack says:

      Why not just come out and and tell me how you really feel about the community center with a Mosque two blocks from ground zero?

      Why not just come out and tell me how you really feel about Muslims and Islamic Culture?

      From what ive read, I can clearly see that you truly are ignorant, bigoted and racist towards the Muslim Community or Muslims as a whole, not just because of Conservative media and misinformation, but the very fact that you have no knowledge of Islamic Culture, Muslims or the Qur'an. You are intolerant. You, and people just like you are the problem, nobody else.

      Seriously Billie, just come out and tell me how you really feel. It's worse to hide your true feelings. I would respect you more to just come out and say what you really feel.

      Let me copy and paste the true nature of your debate right here, right now.

      I stated-

      "your against Islamic Culture"

      Then YOU stated-

      “Conservatives are against ALL who’s beliefs are to kill human life/”

      -You believe Islamic culture pushes the belief to kill human life.

      Pardon my choice of words, but you truly are an idiot.

      Keep digging yourself in that hole.

    40. Zack says:

      Why not just come out and and tell me how you really feel about the community center with a Mosque two blocks from ground zero?

      Why not just come out and tell me how you really feel about Muslims and Islamic Culture?

      From what ive read, I can clearly see that you truly are ignorant towards the Muslim Community or Muslims as a whole, not just because of Conservative media and misinformation, but the very fact that you have no knowledge of Islamic Culture, Muslims or the Qur’an. You are intolerant. You, and people just like you are the problem, nobody else.

      Seriously Billie, just come out and tell me how you really feel. It’s worse to hide your true feelings. I would respect you more to just come out and say what you really feel.

      Let me copy and paste the true nature of your debate right here, right now.

      I stated-

      “your against Islamic Culture”

      Then YOU stated-

      “Conservatives are against ALL who’s beliefs are to kill human life/”

      -You believe Islamic culture pushes the belief to kill human life.

      Pardon my choice of words, but you truly are an idiot.

      Keep digging yourself in that hole.

    41. Billie says:

      what's the point of answering you, spinner? You can't even put the answer to your own question. You accept no truth and disrespect the words of others. I don't know why Heritage even puts your comments on? Nothing but continuous redundancy. Totally unproductive and wasteful. Those that idolize government dependency only have that limited thought process… such a pity you've grown so weak to give up everything and defend government dependency to call it freedom. Don't assume anything on me, spinner.

    42. Zack Hill says:

      you stated-

      "what’s the point of answering you, spinner?"

      -you cant answer because you have no credible response. and "spinner?"

      treasurydirect.gov, votesmart.org, opencongress.org, federal reserve board data, legislative and economic archives, housing periodic reports, the other links i gave you for housing market share losses, 8 years of research in comparitive religions and 8 years of research and study of islamic culture and the qur'an, etc. for other blogs that you have attempted to debate me on? that is considered spin? really? you cant answer because your the typical partisan conservative with nothing but talking points. that's really all you have. let me repeat, that is really all you have.

      you stated-

      "You can’t even put the answer to your own question"

      -which question? please let me know? what exactly are you talking about?

      you stated-

      "You accept no truth and disrespect the words of others"

      -no truth? what truth? your partisan opinons are now truth?

      disrespect? I have a hard time giving you any respect because you have not offered a single bit of evidence backing up any argument you have had. you will get respect when you earn it. and for you to walk around the fact that you truly do think muslims are evil people and the entire culture is based on the killing of human life, you think I have the slighest bit of respect for you? People like you should be deported from the country, thats whay I really think. how about that?

      you stated-

      "I don’t know why Heritage even puts your comments on?"

      -you would like to have facts blocked wouldn't you? you cannot accept an opposing point of view with facts to back them up. your right and everybody else is wrong in your little world. I have already been a critic of certain democratic, government and Obama policy so my credibility stands. Your to stubborn to take a single thing into account. and don't worry, The Heritage Foundation has already not posted over 18 comments in the last 15 months alone. That was a very ignorant comment to make anyways. You dont know why they put my comments on? are you being serious?

    43. Zack Hill says:

      you stated-

      "Nothing but continuous redundancy. Totally unproductive and wasteful"

      -Billie, look back at your comments! all talking points. Are they not? so talking points and opinions are more productive and less wasteful then economic history and numerical evidence with sources provided?

      you stated-

      "Those that idolize government dependency only have that limited thought process… such a pity you’ve grown so weak to give up everything and defend government dependency to call it freedom"

      -haha. I think you have just about lost it at this point. what are you even talking about? idolize government!? I have 0% dependency on government but I am smart enough to know that there are people and business's out there that need government. you have no ideas for government. you just "don't like it" because conservative media tells you so. you keep calling me "weak". who has provided facts in every debate so far? who started with really akward personal attacks? who has used nothing but talking points and partisan opinion? your lack of economic and legislative understanding has already killed your entire debate in every comment you have left so far.

      "Don’t assume anything on me, spinner"

      wow, I can tell that you are really starting to get frustrated

      -there is nothing left to assume. you have already shown me that you have no ability to have a credible debate. you reject study, research and probably a college degree for all I know. Are those things not important? ive earned my keep in any deabte on this website so far, you have not.

      Now, get back to the real problem here, which is you, demonizing Muslims and Islamic Culture. Tell me why you are REALLY against the community center with a Mosque two block from ground zero????

      Again, so we are clear. You have literally not directly answered a single question on this blog. And as far a "spin" is concerned. Look at your responses to the questions I asked. You won't answer, you cant answer, you have no ability to. Prove me wrong, otherwise stop digging yourself in that hole!

      Stick to the debate. You keep deflecting everytime I ask you questions. Your all over the place!

      Let me try again…

      TELL ME EXACTLY WHY YOU ARE AGAINST THE COMMUNITY CENTER WITH A MOSQUE TWO BLOCKS AWAY FROM GROUND ZERO. SIMPLE QUESTION, SHOULD BE A SIMPLE ANSWER. waiting…….

      other simple questions with simple answers….

      Have you read the Qur’an?

      Have you studied Islamic Culture?

      Have you studied tax laws based on secular and non secular zoning permits?

      Are you aware that tax dollars fund thousand of christian community centers across the country?

      Have you any Muslim friends?

      Have you had any experience with Muslims?

      This will never end. I'm having so much fun with you I could do this for years on end. I just can't believe that people like you vote. It's insanity!

      More talking points Billie or actual answers?

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