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  • What Boehner Should Have Told Gregory

    The mainstream media is having a field day with House Minority Leader John Boehner’s (R–OH) less-than-stellar handling of a simple “when did you stop beating your wife” question posed by NBC’s David Gregory on Sunday’s Meet the Press.

    Gregory repeatedly badgered Boehner about how he could square the Republicans’ newfound concern over the budget deficit with an unwillingness to pay for “tax cuts,” at one point asking, “How can you be for cutting the deficit and also cutting taxes, as well, when they’re not paid for?”

    Boehner responded, “You can’t raise taxes in the middle of a weak economy.” He’s right, of course. Obama and friends want to raise taxes.  But Gregory and his media buddies keep referring to tax cuts, not tax hikes, perpetuating a politically convenient confusion.

    After his observation about tax hikes on a sliding economy, Boehner should have continued with the equivalent of “Gee, David, I’m not even married.” He should have said:

    Tax cuts? What tax cuts? I’m not proposing tax cuts. The President’s not proposing tax cuts. You’re not proposing tax cuts. We’re talking here about whether we should hit the economy with a massive tax increase. It’s nuts to suggest you need to pay for the defeat of a tax hike by raising taxes. That’s a cynical heads-I-win-tails-you-lose game some people play in Washington. You may try to play that game, but I’m not going to.

    Unfortunately, the issue of the moment is not whether taxes should be cut. Having ballooned the deficit with unconscionable spending hikes, the nation’s tax cut options are few and small. The issue is whether Obama and friends can force through a huge tax increase by allowing taxes to return to pre-2001 form. Gregory, of course, knows this full well, and he knows how the Congressional Budget Office’s persistently perverse scoring conventions add to the confusion by insisting one has to raise taxes to avoid raising taxes.  Or, as they express it in Washington, you have to “pay for” not raising taxes. This is absurd.

    Another major inconsistency this debate highlights is that liberals and their media allies argue that avoiding the higher tax rates must be paid for, but avoiding the middle class tax hikes need not be paid for. There is no basis for this distinction. If the liberals are going to argue extending current policy means cutting taxes, then that argument must apply to all of current policy—the higher child tax credits, the marriage penalty relief, the higher rates on income and capital gains and dividends, etc. But this, too, would be a massive and thoroughly indefensible tax hike.

    To his credit, Obama’s budget doesn’t play the Gregory/CBO scoring game. The President’s budget shows that raising tax rates is a revenue-raising tax increase, while extending current policy keeps revenues on their current trajectory. This is an honest approach the media would do well to follow.

    Posted in Economics [slideshow_deploy]

    103 Responses to What Boehner Should Have Told Gregory

    1. Billie says:

      Why does the media make exceptions to every dereliction of Obama's? The only difference in obama and any other president before him is his skin color! That's the reason why media spins and covers all obama's atrocities and antiAmerican love? They don't hold Obama to the same standards as any other president!

      Clear message, they make exception because of his skin color! That is RACIST! He says he's Christian yet he doesn't follow what Jesus Christ, who isn't a white man, taught everybody of every skin color.

      It's not Obama's skin color, media. He's not the man to hold himself accountable to his intent and at his choice so the media protects his genuine hatred and intolerance and goal to collapse this country.

      If the media isn't racist, they will hold obama accountable to his actions and report the truth to the people…only "if."

      End government wins, people lose games or step down…and thank you, Mr. Boehner for standing on principle and not giving into the game!

    2. Zack says:

      Taxes are not going up for the middle class which is over 90% of the country. Taxes are going back to the level they should for high income earners alone. Tax rates at 39% for high income earners is the lowest taxes have been since 1952 before dropping to 36% under Bush. If you make over $250,000 average annual income you pay 39% for federal income taxes instead of 36%, that same percentage before the Bush Tax Cuts. 2/3 of all the tax cuts went to highest 1% tax bracket. Conservatives say that we all received tax cuts under the Bush Tax Cuts. Are you referring to the extra $3.75 per paycheck based a $45,000 average annual salary? That's what over 90% of the people in this country got from Bush Tax Cuts….$3.75. And even if tax rates did go up for the middle class, they go up around $4 dollars per paycheck, which they wont.

      Aside from no conservative to this date providing evidence as to how the Bush Tax Cuts actually worked, let's talk about Federal Revenue. The cuts physically ripped 1.9 Trillion out of Federal Revenue. Other programs that obtain cost rely on Federal Revenue. The Federal Revenue had been decreased so much that in order to pay for these programs, the government has to take out a loans. These loans are not payed back on time, so we borrow more money. Borrowing money adds to debt. Debt accuired adds to the national debt. After borrowing, including interest, we would be lucky if the Bush Tax Cuts only end up adding 2.5 trillion to the National Debt. Infact, close to half of the current increase to the National Debt is directly due to the previous Administration and Republican and Conservative Congress Legislation. Disagree? of course most of you do….your conservatives. 9 years is more then enough time to show evidence of a failed or sucessful pieces of legislation and the tax cuts unfortunately failed. use treasurydirect.gov, opencongress.org, votesmart.org, legislative and economic archives. Stop buying into Heritage, your wasting your time.

      Besides, the most ammusing part of the Conservative arguement is that tax cuts help the economy……really? we are barely getting out of a recession that started before Obama even touched the whitehouse steps. By the way, 93% off all legislation that became public law from 2006-2008 was of conservative and republican sponsorship. Blame the democratic majority in the house and half the senate for getting 7% off legislation through during that time. Legislative history is fun! Also, conservative believe in supply-side and trickle down….again….really? The majority of companies and business in the country at this current date are recording record profits yet unemployment is still high. They are not to hiring, yet you blame Obama? Executives and CEO's care much more about their own pocket then employee incentives and benefits, that's the american way. It seems 8 years of failed policy and more years affected by that failed policy is all Obama's fault. I keep hearing from conservatives, "stop blaming Bush" why? Economic and Legislative history is based on numerical evidence, why should I not blame failed policy? I wish Conservatives would stop blaming Obama for the mess he did NOT create. BUT, I disagree with many things Democrats and this administration are doing and the current programs are not that much better. The stimulus was not effective enough, the money spent in Afganistan is a waste, HR 3590 is far from perfect. Now, lets hear some of you attack your own Conservative party of policies, is that even possible for Conservatives?

      Now, please carry on with the personal attacks, anger, hatred of an opposing viewpoint. But, if you consider debating the tax cuts, please, please, please provide at least a spec of evidence. The conservative talking points are getting older then stonewashed jeans!

    3. Robert Stanton, Anch says:

      Rather than agonizing over how to answer a loaded question, the answer could have been "We will lower the deficit by reducing spending and cutting non-essential government programs. The current tax levels will add to the revenue once government gets out of the way of the private sector".

    4. Jim says:

      Unfortunatly, Rep Bohner is as good on his feet as Sen McCaina–and has the same grasp on economic principles

    5. Drew Page, IL says:

      Zack — 50% of wage earners in the U.S. pay no federal income taxes. The top 5% of income earners pay more than 40% of all income taxes. Typically, the top 5% of income earners in this country are small business owners who employ the majority of American workers.

      If you don't think you are paying enough federal income tax, please feel free to send the IRS more. Or are you in that 50% that doesn't pay federal income tax?

    6. WayneB, Kentucky says:

      What he should have said was:

      "You don't know what you're talking about. After the Bush tax cuts, the GDP rose significantly, which by itself would cause tax receipts to increase, but you know what else? Tax receipts increased FASTER than the increase in GDP, so your whole premise is off base."

    7. Zack says:

      "lower the deficit"? conservatives didn't before so why trust them now?

      which "non-essential government programs"?…like the tax cuts themselves or the inflated military budgets?

      Obviously, the "current tax levels" are the problem. 2.5 trillion take from federal revenue….

    8. Pingback: What Boehner Should Have Told Gregory « South Capitol Street

    9. Joel Cincinnati says:

      Zack you are wrong on all accounts!! This is the problem when you don't actually know the facts and continue to spew the lefts TV agenda and rhetoric. You are naive my friend.

      to the Boehner should have just started from the beginning and rehashed the facts that letting them expire is a Tax Hike and that the dip@#$ mist be twisting the facts again.

      I am tired of conservative leaders letting themselves get caught by numbnuts who are being allowed to frame the argument then assume that they are correct in how it was framed.

    10. Bill from MD says:

      Zack's comments are typical liberal (er progressive) spin. Make those "rich people" pay for ever increasing spending on entitlements, payoffs, bailouts and pork that are endemic in a DEM controlled federal government. Liberals never mention that the top 5% of wage earners pay 50% of all taxes. Also 47% of American's don't pay income taxes… How is that fair? Everyone regardless of thier income should pay income taxes. They receive federal services and should have to pay a percentage of thier income period.

    11. TJS, FL says:

      Don't get fancy or tricky. Just stick to the fundamentals. "The federal government should be 18% of GDP, like it was under Gingrich (Clinton)." The federal government is 39% bigger than under Gingrich. Get rid of entire departments – education, energy, agriculture, EPA. Cut federal workers back to 2000 levels. Cut federal pay by 10%, and then freeze it for 10 years. Prohibit all subsidies, including housing, ethanol, energy schemes, education. Stop any welfare payments to millionaires – social security and Medicare. Sell half of all federal lands in the West. Let energy leases on any and all federal lands except national parks. Revoke half of all federal regulations. Sell half the federal office buildings in DC.

    12. Renny MD says:

      Who is responsible for instituting "impeachment proceedings??"

      Sorry, I do not know how it starts, but I think it should "START!!!!!"

    13. Christine, Hillsboro says:

      My commment is written to help Zach understand our tax system:

      Our Tax System Explained:

      Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100. If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this:

      The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.

      The fifth would pay $1.

      The sixth would pay $3.

      The seventh would pay $7.

      The eighth would pay $12.

      The ninth would pay $18.

      The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

      So, that’s what they decided to do.

      The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve. “Since you are all such good customers,” he said, “I’m going to reduce the cost of your

      daily beer by $20.” Drinks for the ten now cost just $80.

      The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes so the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free.

      But what about the other six men – the paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his ‘fair share?’

      They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they

      subtracted that from everybody’s share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer. So, the bar owner suggested that it

      would be fair to reduce each man’s bill by roughly the same amount, and he proceeded to work out the amounts each should pay.

      And so:

      The fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% savings).

      The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% savings).

      The seventh now pay $5 instead of $7 (28% savings).

      The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% savings).

      The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% savings).

      The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% savings).

      Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But once outside the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings.

      “I only got a dollar out of the $20, “declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,” but he got $10!”

      “Yeah, that’s right,” exclaimed the fifth man. “I only saved a dollar, too. It’s unfair that he got ten times more than I got”

      “That’s true!!” shouted the seventh man. “Why should he get $10 back when I got only two? The wealthy get all the breaks!”

      “Wait a minute,” yelled the first four men in unison. “We didn’t get anything at all. The system exploits the poor!”

      The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

      The next night the tenth man didn’t show up for drinks so the nine sat down and had beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn’t have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

      And that, ladies and gentlemen, journalists and college professors, is how our tax system works. The people who pay the highest taxes get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

      For those who understand, no explanation is needed. For those who do not understand, no explanation is possible.

    14. Spiritof76, NH says:

      I would have said that just because the Democratic party was a party of slavery and segregation, they should remain that for ever, although you wonder about that sometimes. In the same way, just because the Republicans under the Bush administration spent more than the revenue, Obama can triple or quadruple that mistake. We need to cut the spending and cut taxes, but drastically cut the bloated government. Hey Gregory, do you spend more than what you earn every year and then ramp that up even more to make you feel good. Stop the pathetic partisan logic of yours, stop wiping Obam's butt and start applying common sense that I think you are capable of. Trying to trick me into some sort of political ambush is stupid at best and irresponsible tactic of a two year old at worst. Repeat after me. Cut spending, live within your means and get the taxes cut along with it.

    15. Defender, Virginia says:

      First, it's OUR money.

      Second, a progressive income tax — you pay a higher percentage as your success increases — is a plank of the socialist/communist manifesto. It is intended to level everyone outside the Inner Party, the Elites, to mediocrity and dependence on government. Why work hard and CREATE JOBS FOR OTHERS if half of what you earn is confiscated? The federal government now defines "the rich" as those with a household income above $200,000. When I was a teenager, a $100,000 house was nearly a mansion; now it's a 1,000-square-foot three-bedroom rancher with a quarter-acre yard. Try payin a mortgage, saving for retirement, helping laid-off adult children make ends meet — one less task for government, by the way — putting your kids through a couple of years of college and paying federal, state and local taxes even WITH $200,000 a year.

      When governments cease waste, fraud and abuse, then we will consider allowing them to raise taxes.

    16. victor gonzales says:

      no such thing as a tax on the rich. Taxing the rich equals higher prices, less raises, less jobs,. End of discussion.

    17. Zack says:

      again, all talking points. explain to me in detail how the bush tax cuts actually worked again? explain to how they will not add over 2.5 trillion to the national debt? The reason Boehner, or any of you Conservatives and Republicans can't explain how the Bush tax cuts worked is because they do not work. Substance please, stop deflecting.

    18. Zack says:

      "But, if you consider debating the tax cuts, please, please, please provide at least a spec of evidence" Didn't you guys read that the first time.

    19. Zack says:

      Christine, I know all about "bar stool economics" Guess what…that was written by a conservative professor. Would you care to site him or just credit yourself for that jumbled up response? It's the same with supply-side, trickle down and vodoo economics. If anyone of you can explain just how they work, be my guest, otherwise stop with the talking points! 4.9 trillion spent under a Bush and republican controlled congress, .6 trillion for 2009 shared budget, .5 trillion for unfunded military contracts, 2.5 trillion for both bush tax cuts. 8.5 trillion is ok to waste but only when conservatives and republicans are in charge right. Also, Heritage always credit Reagan, the only other president aside from Bush to double the National Debt. Fiscal conservatives….What a joke!

    20. Billie says:

      Zack, you use alot of number stats. Do you know the difference between numbers and reality? Numbers make mistakes intentionally and unintentionally. Do you know the difference between rhetoric and reality? Words of rhetoric are used to convince a falsity and or delusional mindset. oops, there you go again! All your leftist talking points are pointless. Grow up and think for yourself.

    21. Zack says:

      Billie,

      all talking points. explain to me in detail how the bush tax cuts actually worked again? explain to how they will not add over 2.5 trillion to the national debt? Billie, do you follow me on Heritage? It seems everytime I post a comment you react with some really weird talking point. Do you have any numbers or sources or information aside from talking points? Do any of you? If you disagree then provide information. It's simple.

    22. Billie says:

      I don't follow you, you just happen to write comments that totally blow my mind. I live in the real world, where numbers aren't accurate and actions speak louder then rhetoric.

      Zack, tax cuts give businesses more to work with. Whether it be to hire more employees or innovate improvements that require more employees. For some reason you will not accept this reality. Obama increases taxes to businesses and that cost goes to the consumer. Not the business, Zack.

      Obama is doing NOTHING PRODUCTIVE! Obama has the unemployment rate going nowhere but UP! Obama puts needless regulations and mandates on private sector businesses which leaves private sector more frivolity to deal with.

      Bush isn't adding anything to the 2.5 trillion dollar debt Obama increases daily.

      The more government Zack, sends the message of a weak people. In a free country, Government should respect that freedom of the people and run at its least, not overtake the country. Every problem this administration is dealing with are the problems resulted from this WEAK American leadership. We're sick of being the result of GOVERNMENT IGNORANCE. Obama government protects their own while imposing the people with endless burdens and debt.

      if I go where you happened to have been, I just might comment.

    23. Billie says:

      correction: 4th line, first full sentence: accept not except.

    24. Zack says:

      you stated-
      “I live in the real world”

      -is the real world for you, the Heritage Foundation and Conservative Media?

      you stated-
      “where numbers aren’t accurate”

      -which numbers? the numbers i get from tresurydirect.gov regarding previous republican and conservative spending? or votesmart.org regarding legislative history? or opencongress.org regarding previous bills/congressional budget office numbers?

      you stated-
      “and actions speak louder then rhetoric”

      -which actions? who are you referring to? conservative actions full of obstruction with no solution to offer but more failed tax cuts?

      you stated-
      “Zack, tax cuts give businesses more to work with. Whether it be to hire more employees or innovate improvements that require more employees. For some reason you will not accept this reality”

      -again, explain to me how that actually worked? Hire more employee’s? Innovation? How did the tax cuts actually provide that, or rather explain to me how 700,000 job losses a month under the Bush Administration accounts for sucessful tax cuts? And, the fact that most companies are recording record profits for the last 10 months, yet hiring no employees(still under the Bush tax cut legislation and effective public law) Also, I keep hearing that “the proof of tax cuts is in the G.D.P. percentage increase”, disregarding the cost of tax cuts(just over 3.9% of total G.D.P.) that double the amount of the annual G.D.P. percentage increase due to tax cuts. That like saying that you make $1.95 a day and spend $3.90 a day. Your in the hole -$1.95.

      you stated-
      “Obama increases taxes to businesses and that cost goes to the consumer. Not the business, Zack”

      -so raising individual taxes based on $200,000 and houshold $250,00 average annual incomes from 36% to 39% will hurt consumers you say. please explain how? what cost will go to the consumer? letting tax cuts expire will not affect small business because that tax is on profits, not income (you deduct expenses from income to arrive at profit, or loss). the assumption/talking point about how this will kill small business is inaccurate. Some very clear evidence as to how having higher income brackets at 39% for federal income tax does not hurt small business is during the Clinton Administration. Over 20 million jobs created and a 3.4% unemployment reduction.

      you stated-
      “Obama is doing NOTHING PRODUCTIVE!”

      -passing healthcare reform, wallstreet reform, deporting 20% more illegals then bush had in his best year, credit card company reform, ensuring regulation and oversight for banks that failed that put us in this recession, the recovery act, spending 14% more on our national defense then bush ever did in his best year, while dropping useless programs like the F-22 raptor, still fighting the war on terrorism(which you thought conservatives would appreciate…but no), and around 38 other bills passed in the 111th congress signed into law by President Obama. Now, that we are talking about “productivity”, please tell me what Conservatives and Republicans have been so productive at other then attacks, negativity, fear mongering, offering no solutions and complete and utter obstructionism???

      you stated-
      “Obama has the unemployment rate going nowhere but UP!”

      -again, so because most companies are recording record profits for the last 10 months, yet hiring no employees, and understanding that previous policy always lags into the next administration is completely Obama’s fault? the unemployment rate topped off at 10 and it has now dropped to 9.5% which means nothing anyways. If you understood economics you would understand that 2 years after a change in the executive branch will ensure accountability for both administrations. It’s the same with national debt, the first fiscal year defecit and legislation passed. Unemployment went up over 3% under the Bush administration and up over 3% since Obama has taken office, which makes since, unemployment goes up in a recession, and yes, Obama takes accountability now that 2 years is approaching. Now, tell me how Conservative and Republican policy would drop the unemployment rate during a recession, what….cut taxes for the rich again?

      you stated-
      “Obama puts needless regulations and mandates on private sector businesses which leaves private sector more frivolity to deal with.”

      -which needless regulations? banking?, wallstreet?, healthcare?
      are you referrring to all the private companies and free market failures in for the last 3 years that the government never touched in the first place?
      an example of just how destructive private sector business was in the housing market collapse. of course, tax payers pick up G.S.E. and C.R.A. losses but we pick up for failed private lenders just the same. these are actual net bottom line losses for 2008/2009 based on total market share–>

      -GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED LENDING=***$224.3 BILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 76% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS

      PRIVATE SECTOR LENDING=***$1.699 TRILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 83% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(Federal Reserve Board data and F.D.I.C reports)

      -all i hear on conservative and republican media fronts, and espically Heritage is about Fannie and Freddie. What about the private lenders that government never touched? I studied this at the U of U for 8 months straight in my economics class and came to the conclusion that private lenders are numerically more accoutable for the housing collapse which led to the recession.

      -that’s what i cant seem to understand about republicans and conservatives. they don’t trust the government, but they trust the free market 100% as if the free market has not shown us just how unstable it really is without government.

      you stated-
      “Bush isn’t adding anything to the 2.5 trillion dollar debt Obama increases daily”

      -have you researched economic and legislative history and how it impacts the next administration and or congress? the current defecit, national debt and spending has very much to do with the past administration and conservative and republican legislation already passed, namely, the bush tax cuts. what about republican and conservative spending? 4.9 trillion spent under a Bush and republican controlled congress?, .6 trillion for 2009 shared budget?, .5 trillion for unfunded military contracts?, 2.5 trillion for both bush tax cuts?. 8.5 trillion(treasury direct.gov)

      you stated-
      “The more government Zack, sends the message of a weak people. In a free country, Government should respect that freedom of the people and run at its least, not overtake the country”

      -that’s the biggest problem with conservatives and republicans. they assume government is always the problem while overlooking what happens to the free market. this “free market” is what took individual freedom away with corporate greed, monopolies and unregulated business espically in the housing market where it all started. And, the “people” spoke in november of 2008 and they will speak again this november. How exactly is the government taking over the country anyways? Please explain?

      you stated-
      “Every problem this administration is dealing with are the problems resulted from this WEAK American leadership”

      -really, every problem? so the housing collapse is Obama’s fault? the recession is Obama’s fault? the 6.6 trillion already added to the national debt with another 1.9 trillion to be added by 2014 from conservative, republican and bush policy is Obama’s fault?

      you stated-
      We’re sick of being the result of GOVERNMENT IGNORANCE.

      -you know what im sick of? people not doing their own research, people not studying economic and legislative history and heaven forbid actually getting a degree in legislative studies…does that make me the enemy for being educated? im sick of people buying into everyword from blogs on websites like this one. im sick of conservatives and republicans offering no solutions, the constant attacks with no substance to back up exactly what they are trying to point out, the disgraceful media outlets with nothing to offer but fear mongering. Those are things im sick of. im sick of conservative and republicans providing no effort to reason with anything, religious intolerance, social intolerance, ridiculous spending, failed policy, etc.

      you stated-
      Obama government protects their own while imposing the people with endless burdens and debt”

      -yea because right wing politicians care about anything other then large corporations and their personal investments. and the burden and debt have already been placed on us by the very people that you voted for.

      and what’s with the hatred and personal attacks on this website when someone offers a different opinion with facts and evidence backed with numbers to provide a realistic debate? you said to me earlier…”Grow up and think for yourself”

      I do think for myself and always have, you follow Heritage as fact. That’s the difference between you, the majority of people that leave comments on this website and me. I earned my information.

      Billie, when did talking points become more valuable then sources, numerical evidence and legislative and economic history? I sure hope that never comes true but following the right wing for the last 18 months I can’t see anything else.

      Pardon the grammar. I’m working with a client, pulling payroll and trying to write way to fast all at the same time.

      bring it, any of you. all of you. substance. I’m tired of wasting my time. and Mr. Conn Caroll, you ever plan on coming out from hiding?

    25. Billie says:

      If a business needs government to give tax breaks to HIRE, the business ISN'T part of the free economy and shouldn't exist. Yes, I believe Heritage has much more honest research and concern for the freedom of America than your research and WHAT YOU TAKE AS facts. through government sources.

      GOVERNMENT IS NOT FREEDOM, ZACK. Your hero, Obama is doing NOTHING PRODUCTIVE FOR THE PEOPLE OF THIS COUNTRY UNDER AMERICA'S PRINCIPLES OF FREEDOM! Bush was baited this ugliness. The burden and debt is increasing under Obama, Zack! U-N-D-E-R O-B-A-M-A!

      “Every problem this administration is dealing with are the problems resulted from this WEAK American leadership” Yes really, directly and or indirectly. Community organizer, senate, Yes, really. ex: Fannie and Freddie, created with all good intentions, abused by democrat authority to corrupt. No man of good will and intelligence would make exception to this financially limitless failure.

      Zack, what the heck? I am one of many conservatives that of many don't own big business, or have money to invest. Yes, Bush did promote the bail-out that Obama could've voted "no" on during his senate. Voting "present" is underhanded and a man I do not trust. That's obama bailing out big business, not Heritage. Do you really think he did it for the right wing politicians? He did it for the illusion of need for more government, Zack. Please, help yourself to perceive.

      What I said personally to you has nothing to do with HATE but you use that word as a leftist would… Obama's only solution is more government. Well, that's no solution to a country of free people! That's take-over! And if you can't respect Heritage for solutions that keep the people of this country free, than I am deeply saddened by your lack of inner strength.

      Zack, another thing I do not understand about you is why you focus on what has happened in the past as if all are excusable in the present?

      p.s. I don't work for a business where I can use my personal "free" time to comment at Heritage. WOW! Must be some government subsidized business you work for, eh? Not much in the "work ethic" department.

    26. Zack says:

      "Maybe you should try looking at 2009 numbers

      Also the list you gave me has few listed Lenders. You should try and stay on topic.

      The link you offered shows that fannie and freddie lost 93.6 Billion"

      -disregard that part. it's from another file I had a few months back. everything else is rock solid and i provided links to prove it. Federal Reserve Board Data is as good as it gets.

      Now, Bille, will you provide a debate or more personal attacks, emotion and talking points?

    27. Zack says:

      Is that all you could come up with? More personal attacks about my job?? and nothing but talking points? I’m truly sorry, but your comment holds no water. I gave you a chance and you provided nothing. I gave you facts, sources and evidence and you provided nothing. Pitiful.

    28. Zack says:

      Bille, I will take just one part of the “talking points” response you gave regarding Fannie and Freddie.
      I will cover the rest of the “talking points” response you gave at another time.

      Very few of these sub-prime predatory loans were made by CRA backed institutions, most were made by these big mortgage companies like countrywide which are now bankrupt. And most of the mortgage defaults were people who re-financed, not firts time homebuyers. It was this whole system of commercial banks making these predatory loans and selling the mortagages to investment banks and investment banks selling the mortgages in derivatives to global investors. Now this whole derviative bubble burst and all these global investors have AIG in case they loose money. It was awful greed and corrpution on wall street that caused this mess. Instead of giving trillions of dollars to investment banks to kep donig the same things they have been doing, how about giving the money to homeowners to elimenate mortgages? That is what should have happened, but it didn’t and which party was in charge of the house, senate and presidency at the time? bingo!
      Federal Reserve Board data show that:
      More than 84 percent of the subprime mortgages were issued by private lending institutions.
      Private firms made nearly 83 percent of the subprime loans to low- and moderate-income borrowers.
      Only one of the top 25 subprime lenders were directly subject to the housing law.
      need anything else?
      Do you understand Market Share and loss? The private sector dominates losses for Lenders, Banks and all other companies.

      1.264 TRILLION against 93.6 Billiom
      http://bankimplode.com/blog/category/writedowns-and-distress/
      Private companies that took losses are listed below.
      Maybe you should try looking at 2009 numbers
      Also the list you gave me has few listed Lenders. You should try and stay on topic.
      The link you offered shows that fannie and freddie lost 93.6 Billion.
      The other private companies,(most of them not Lenders) shows 66.7 Billion in losses.
      Yes, the private companies listed came in at around 2/3 of Fannie and Freddie.
      These (private companies) below have estimate losses of 1.264 TRILLION combined.

      Wells Fargo – $138.6B
      Goldman Sachs – $129.0B
      Morgan Stanley – $121.0B
      JP Morgan Chase & Co. – $221.7B
      Citigroup – $309.7B
      UBS – $228.6B
      Merrill Lynch – $115.4B
      We are talking about Lenders and the housing market were 85% of the Private companies held
      total market share and G.S.E.’s and any Lenders subject to C.R.A. were only 15%
      And as far as banks and other private companies, their losses destroy and
      government regulated companies, even fannie and freddie.
      Here is a list and link to other (private Lenders) that took losses…
      http://gdaeman.blogspot.com/2007/08/tally-of-failed-mortgage-companies.html
      290 of these Lenders were not subject to C.R.A. or any other Government Regulation.
      290 were NOT G.S.E.’s. 95% of all lenders listed were completely free market based.
      16 were under G.S.E.’S and C.R.A. which is around 5% of the Lenders listed
      A complete list of Lenders shows that 85% were not subject to C.R.A nor were they
      “Governement Sponsored Entities”

      2——————————————————————————————-
      85% of all lenders subject to the (community reinvestment act) had no corresponding rise in bank failures up until 2006/2007 or the fact that any G.S.E’s, including C.R.A. made up for less then 25.5% of the entire subprime market share in the U.S. Also, have you read the the C.R.A. bill at all, the ammendments given, the timeline statistics of C.R.A. or the percentage of market share, the periodic reports? Its discriminatory lending that brings the government in, mostly due to corruption within private lenders. If the free market was so great it would have understood that spreading the market to low-income borrowers makes profitable since, but they didn’t. It was nothing but the good old fashioned american dream which is take the money, screw everyone else and run! I’m not saying government is the solution but when successful programs like C.R.A. that worked for 30 years along with G.S.E.’S that had absolutely no regulatory refrom what else would you expect to happen? G.S.E’s and C.R.A were neccessary And I will blame the conservative/republican majority in congress and the last administration, how could I not? They passed nothing to combat reform, nothing. No offense, but come on man, broad statements are a dime a dozen on this website. I want substance, substance, Substance!
      This blame only Fannie and Freddie battle was lost long ago.
      I love this conservative idea that all the lenders (not subject to government in any way, shape or form) get a free pass? I just can’t seem to wrap my head around people refusing numerical evidence.

      Even if every single loan under C.R.A. or any other G.S.E’s failed it is still dwarfed by the private sector in lending.
      GSE(Government Sponsored) share of subprime originations by year:
      2002 – 18%
      2003 – 24%
      2004 – 33%
      2005 – 27%
      PRIVATE COMPANIES(free market) subprime originations by year do the math.
      2002 – 82%
      2003 – 76%
      2004 – 67%
      2005 – 73%
      subprime lending was the problem and GSE’s were dwarfed by the remaining percentage share. again, the free market does not get a free pass.
      also,
      85% of all lenders subject to the (community reinvestment act) had no corresponding rise in bank failures up until 2006/2007. Worked just fine since 1977, for 30 years.
      Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and CRA was not the problem. Having no regulatory reform was the problem. The conservative/republican majority in the lesiglative and executive branch while all of this happend was the problem.
      numerical evidence is fun!

      Subprime lending increased from 6% of the total market share in 2002, to 20% in 2006.
      So about that other 80%-94%(completely free market based) housing market share for ten years that the government never ever ever touched…?
      The bottom line is that when Fannie and Freddie were at ends to fall apart, conservatives and republicans had the house, senate and presidency and did absolutely nothing to fix the problem. “Sponsored bills out of sub-committee’s” hold no water.
      This housing crisis was pure capitalism locked by conservative policy in it’s most disastrous form. Pathetic and beyond pardon.
      All of you that choose to blame Government, Carter, Clinton and somehow Obama have a great deal of research to do.
      As much as I want to believe in free market, sometimes this is the kind of mess that free market creates. Corporate American greed will not get a free pass. Government is not always the answer either. The government has and will continue to make mistakes but the housing crisis aint one of them.
      This is the typical american (take what profit you can, screw everyone else and run) idea that happened here, nothing else. Government programs regulating lenders to make small loans available to lenders that would otherwise not reach out to them is the least of the problem. Drop Heritage and do some real research.
      -The housing market controlled by the free market including the (top 7 private sector losses in 2008/2009 including the remaining 290 private sector lenders that show losses in 2007/2008/ (all listed below), that controlled 85% of the entire market share in the U.S.(confirmed, not “estimated” by Federal Reserve Board data and F.D.I.C reports) accounted for an average 83% net bottom line loss in 2008/2009.
      Wells Fargo – $138.6B
      Goldman Sachs – $129.0B
      Morgan Stanley – $121.0B
      JP Morgan Chase & Co. – $221.7B
      Citigroup – $309.7B
      UBS – $228.6B
      Merrill Lynch – $115.4B
      -those top 7 private sector losses 2008/2009 can be found at- http://bankimplode.com/blog/category/writedowns-and-distress/
      -the remaining 290 private sector losses 2007-2008 can be found at-
      http://gdaeman.blogspot.com/2007/08/tally-of-failed-mortgage-companies.html
      -so lets do a comparrison between government regulated lenders and private sector lenders…
      -2008/2009 net losses for fannie, freddie(primary G.S.E.’s) and the remaining
      smaller 16 lenders under C.R.A.from 2007/2008/2009 side note:(12 out of 16 were not listed under or subject to C.R.A in 2007)
      -Freddie Mac: $71.7 billion
      +Fannie Mae: $130.7 billion
      +other 16 lenders: 21.9 billion
      Total losses in 2008/2009 from all government regulated lenders was
      =***$224.3 billion*** bottom line losses for Fannie and Freddie were actually ***88%*** not 90% and for the other 16 lenders an average of ***64%*** concluding an estimated average of ***76%*** in bottom line losses
      -2008/2009 losses for private companie in the private sector that had absolutlely no government regulation
      -1.264 trillion from top 7 private sector losses (listed above)
      +435.6 billion from the remaining 290 private sector losses (listed above)
      Total losses in 2008/2009 from all private sector lenders was
      =***1.699 trillion***bottom line losses for all private sector lenders were an estimated average of ***83%*** in bottom line losses
      to summarize..
      -GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED LENDING=***$224.3 BILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 76% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS
      -PRIVATE SECTOR LENDING=***$1.699 TRILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 83% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS
      -infact, the private sector lenders had 19% higher losses then the other 16 smaller lenders under government regulation(C.R.A.)
      -though, Fannie and Freddie(primary G.S.E.’s had 5% higher losses then the private sector lenders.
      -so basically if you want to compare a higher loss with fannie and freddie at 5% to the private sector having $1.444 trillion more in actual losses then go right ahead!
      -or if you want to compare percentages…please, lets!
      - government losses make up for 13.5% while private sector losses make up for about 86.5% of total losses. wow, its funny how every single number comes close to that magic 85% of total private sector control in the entire housing market share!
      -again, so since fannie and freddie had 5% higher bottom line losses then the private sector lenders that means we should only trust free market lending?…
      -and the private sector lender losses that dwarfed the government regulated lender losses accounts for…..?
      -I also assume you intentionally forgot to mention the fact that Fannie and Freddie needed regulatory reform years ago. They had full warning about the problem years ago. Who was in charge? not a single regulatory refrom bill passed from the republican/conservative led 103rd-109th congress(for 12 years) or the republican/conservative Bush administration(for 8 years) or the republican/conservative banking and finance committee chairs(for 10 years) or the republican/conservative treasury secretary(for 10 years). nothing passed, not a single bill. Which party passed specific regulatory reform for fannie and freddie in 2007…..oh yeah, Democrats in congress. hmmmmm. well, no suprise, the right-wing hates government so why would they be for regulatory reform for the largest market in the United States even after being warned about it over and over and over?
      Also, Bush and Republicans/Conservatives in congress pushing for 5.5 million more homeowners during the warnings. Or grahm-leachy which almost eliminated any and all regulation for this market. Who to blame, Republicans in congress for voting for that bill and Clinton for signing it. Wait, did I just blame someone in my own party for something! wow, I would pay money to see a republican/conservative blame someone in their own party for just one thing…I can only dream.
      -The bottom line is that Fannie and Freddie and These private companies would have been alot better with more attention and at best, some kind of regulatory reform, but thanks to republicans/conservatives in congress and the Bush Administration nothing happened. That is not opinion, that is legislative and economic history.
      Government regulated lenders are no better or worse then the private sector lenders but the total loss is much much worse for the private sector. Again, not an opinion, numerical evidence.
      -I think the real problem with your debate is to only single out fannie and freddie.
      #1-the other lenders under c.r.a. did better then the private sector.
      #2-fannie and freddie alone had 5% higher losses then the private sector which is not that signifigant.
      #3-the private sector losses dominate the total market share
      #4 the private sector owns 85% of the total market share
      #5 not a single regulatory reform bill was passed through congress for 12 years.
      A majority of the loans taken in by Fannie and Freddie from 2005-2009 were already bad. Horrible data systems, no regulation of any form, no oversight, nothing. So basically, loans that originated in the private sectors, outside of Fannie and Freddie, taken in by Fannie and Freddie makes it Fannie and Freddie’s fault that the bad loans originated completely outside of Fannie and Freddie in the first place? Man, I just love conservative thinking! So much spinning it makes you dizzy!
      Again, Fannie and Freddie were and are no worse then the private sector lending. Infact, total “bottom line losses” in the private sector destroy Fannie and Freddie or any other G.S.E.’s or Lenders under C.R.A.
      Any single person on this website who thinks otherwise bring evidence, not talking points.
      And by the way Billie, I made my company, which is a private business over $91,000 gross profit since november of 2009, not that it’s any of your business but since you are so interested in my job, and the “work ethic” i have, there you go! What have you done to put money into this economy aside from following Heritage?

    29. Billie says:

      Gosh Zack, the job thing was just to lighten things up. But you clearly communicate by your words, your inner weakness, being easily offended, like all who excuse Obama. Hmm…

      Government regulated lenders are worse, Zack! Government MANDATES costs FROM the private sector, where private sector lenders DO NOT!

      Why didn't you answer why you excuse every bit of government incompetence today? MAYBE YOU DID, YOUR COMMENT BECAME BORING SO IT WAS JUST SKIMMED THROUGH, A BIT…

      fannie and freddie are the root of all housing disasters. Your spew doesn't add up.

      The only ideas government has, comes from the private sector! No intelligence needed or used, but to abuse and corrupt. Look at what's going on!

      Maybe this will help you Zack: Beyond their constitutional duty, wherever government is, FREEDOM IS NOT! Love ya, sweetie! Take care.

    30. Zack says:

      this might have been on of the most embarrasing and pitiful debates I have ever been involved in.

      -you stated-

      "YOUR COMMENT BECAME BORING SO IT WAS JUST SKIMMED THROUGH"

      yea, beacuse actual facts(I provided with sources) are less credible then your talking points and emotional response? When did facts become irrelevant?

      I provided just one example that led to this recession- private sector(free market) lenders having much worse losses and causing much more damage to the economy then government(G.S.E.'s) lenders in the housing market. A solid fact and you respond with that?

      your not one of those people that feels they have to get the last word in after losing a debate are you?

    31. Billie says:

      Zack, you are so precious. I am privileged and respect your comments…

      How do you think every person of every part of government gets paid? I mean really sweetie, without the private sector there wouldn't be a government! Government shouldn't be in position to compete with the private sector, it's a contradiction of freedom. Let the free market do its thing! The freer the people the less government needed, less tax dollars taken from the working class. You're not one of those people that wants to eliminate the freedom of the private sector for government growth, are you?

    32. Zack says:

      Still all typical conservative talking points. I provided facts and sources, will you?

      The ball is in your court and has been since this blog opened.

      As a matter of fact, you didn't answer a single questions I asked.

      Still waiting…

    33. Zack says:

      So far, all you have used is talking points with no numbers or sources, confused emotion, all CAP's to get some failed idea across, akward personal attacks about my job or understanding of the economy, weird comments like "sweetie and precious"- all things that people use after they have lost a debate and can't find a way out of it. If you could answer at least one question, which you probably wont, is this…What have conservatives and republicans done through legislation, policy, to help this country and economy for the last 30 years? Just one thing? Just one simple thing? I would like to know. Again, please provide the slightest spec of evidence, just something. I hate to say this, but you are truly embarrasing yourself until you come up with solid facts aside from talking points.

      Waiting….

    34. Zack says:

      And didn't we "Let the free market do its thing!" already? Yea, that turned out great! That's the entire basis of this confused and misinformed conservative mindset. The largest sectors of the free market fell flat on it's face without the government ever touching it. This recession happened before President Obama touched the white house steps, don't forget that.

      Still waiting…..

    35. Billie says:

      I'm not going to answer questions to your government resourced calculations. With the private sector under goverments' thumb, government can make anything look as good as you see enough to defend government.

      The government is always corruptive toward the "free market." Obama didn't "change" that. He's taking advantage of it.

      You answered none of my questions, Zack. Like the fact that (i mentioned fannie and freddie but will correct to say) government is the root of all the collapses of this country, sweetie!

      Build faith in the freedom we will all soon be without! Love ya, sweetie! Take care. I'm sorry, I won't call you "sweetie" anymore. People have such different levels of sensitivity…

    36. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "I’m not going to answer questions to your government resourced calculations"

      -the numbers I provided are non-partisan numbers. actual numbers. actual money spent, actual percentages. And the reason you can't or will not answer any of my questions because you, along with many other conservatives do not take the time to research legislative and economic history. you rely on "talking points", conservative media(like the Heritage Foundation) and you have proved that extremely well in this debate.

      you stated-

      "With the private sector under goverments’ thumb, government can make anything look as good as you see enough to defend government"

      -do you mean the private sector companies that failed that the government never, ever touched or had involvement in? In particular the majority of the entire housing market share?

      you stated-

      "The government is always corruptive toward the “free market.” Obama didn’t “change” that. He’s taking advantage of it"

      -again, please explain exactly what it is you are talking about? And what have conservatives in the house and senate done for the last 30 years to "change" anything aside from continued failed policies like the Bush Tax Cuts?

      you stated-

      "You answered none of my questions, Zack. Like the fact that (i mentioned fannie and freddie but will correct to say) government is the root of all the collapses of this country, sweetie!"

      -are you kidding around or being serious? you mentioned that typical conservative "talking point" blaming fannie/freddie/government/democrats/obama for the housing collapse and I responded with a 5 page summary of housing market share bottom line losses, legislative and economic history based on congress majority/minority with non-partisan numbers from non-partisan sources and you say I answered none of your questions??? look back at this debate and find one single comment that you left, that provides a single source, numerical evidence, legislative action, etc. you left nothing but "talking points"

      you stated-

      "Build faith in the freedom we will all soon be without! Love ya, sweetie! Take care. I’m sorry, I won’t call you “sweetie” anymore. People have such different levels of sensitivity…"

      -i'm not offended by idiotic remarks, personal attacks, or misinformed jumble. I'm just amazed that you could take this debate so far along without providing anything of substance. It seems to most conservatives, (including yourself), that having an education or having a degree in economic and legislative history does not count for credibility? Is that basically what you are getting to? I'm truly sorry that you feel having information and taking time to research is just not that important these days.

    37. Zack says:

      non-partisan numerical evidence against "talking points". This is pitiful.

    38. Zack says:

      That's whats wrong with this country. Websites like Heritage, so openly partisan and misinformed, spreading false information all over the web and people like you that base your vote off this website, emotion and some undeserved sense of ideology. I choose the study, research, non-partisan sources and factual evidence, getting a B.A. in economics and the reasoning approach. It's a little more credible then that flood of conservative "talking points" that I hear day in and day out. A free market collapse was just at fault, if not more then the government for this recession and the conservative approach is to just attack everything this administration is doing, yet offering nothing for solution or substance, and conservatives think that will help them win elections!!!?

      Seriously, conservatives are against healthcare reform, wallstreet reform, banking reform, housing market reform, credit agency reform, same-sex marriage, the mosque near ground zero, the 14th ammendment, the "birthers", they think Obama is a Muslim, communist, trying to destroy our country every chance he gets. Your party, the GOP is a pitiful, embarrasing group of people and this website takes the cake. How can so many people be misinformed for so long? It baffles me everyday.

    39. Zack says:

      substance, substance, substance, please…. I can do this all day. I'm calling you out. You have yet to answer over 16 questions I asked. waiting…..

    40. Zack says:

      -GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED LENDING(Fannie and Freddie including all Lenders subject to C.R.A.)=***$224.3 BILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 76% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 100% government regulation)

      -PRIVATE SECTOR LENDING=***$1.699 TRILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 83% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 0% government regulation)

      -these are actual losses for fiscal years 2008/2009

      -the private lenders(free market based and loved by conservatives) reported losses 750% higher then Fannie, Freddie and all other lenders subject to C.R.A. and you say Fannie and Freddie was the "real problem"?

      Hey, Fannie and Freddie contributed to the housing collapse for sure, but not near as much as the wonderful, beloved free market did! Look at those pesky figures! Numerical evidence is a pain huh? but research and knowledge is fun!

      Oh Billie boy, keep digging that hole. You might see the other side!

      Infact, I challenge not just you, but any single Heritage blogger or anyone involved in running heritage or posting these blogs to dispute these numbers. Anyone, im calling this entire website out! But seriously, I am. I really am calling all of you out. This website is dumbing down the nation!

    41. Billie says:

      Gee Zack, did it ever occur to you that some people have a job 10 hours a day with straight pay, that isn't taken advantage of by using work time for a personal matter?

      You're so impatient!

      GOVERNMENT REGULATES EVERY COMPANY THAT EXISTS, ZACK! Whatever you want to BLAME THE PRIVATE SECTOR ON you forget to keep in mind, the government behind them. FAILURE OF GOVERNMENT OVERSIGHT! GOVERNMENT CAN BRIBE THE PRIVATE SECTOR AS EASY AS THEY CAN TEMPT AVERAGE PEOPLE TO WORK AT A HIGH PAYING GOVERNMENT, UNNECESSARY MAKE-WORK JOB!

      Zack, sweetie, why do you defend and want to depend on the failures of government? Don't you have faith in the individual? In freedom? I haven't the time to research your research. I work at my job! Still love ya, though! God Bless you and America!

    42. Zack says:

      I work too, over 50 hours a week. My salary is based on standard and commission. I complete everything I have to everyday and more. I can use my time anyway I want at work, Ive earned it. Your point being?

      I'm only impatient when I keep hearing conservatives telling us Obama and Democrats are wrong, yet they offer no solutions whatsoever.

      Aside from G.S.E.'s and Lenders under C.R.A., the government had absolutley no part in these private sector Lenders. You are dead wrong. And if you think not, please explain in detail aside from Fannie and Freddie and the other lenders subject to C.R.A., which other private sector lenders were under Government regulation in anyway, shape or form? But, you probably can't answer because you have not answered a single question i asked since this blog opened.

      The government always has failures, but the housing crisis which brought the recession was more due to the private sector Lenders. Plain and simple. And you have not taken time to research yet you still believe whatever you hear on Heritage or Conservative media. That's the problem with conservatives. They can't seem to provide facts or evidence.

      I do believe in individual freedom, probably more then most people in this country. The difference is understanding that capitalism and the "free market" can be just as dangerous and overpowering then any government, and that is something conservatives like yourself just cant seem to understand.

      Besides, what has Obama and this administration done to effect you in a negative way or taken any spec of individual freedom or liberty away from you personaly, whether it be by social or economic means? Conservatives keep saying "Obama is taking our freedom away" and i never, ever get a detailed explanation how. Again, this website and conservative media that spits out false information on a daily basis is one of the main problems in this country. Liberal media is just as bad if not worse.

      You still have not provided any substance to this debate, facts or sources. I think it's time to give up. Otherwise, im just wasting my time. I really thought I would get a good debate from a conservative regarding the tax cuts or the housing crash at least once this year. I guess I will have to wait more.

    43. Zack says:

      just one number. one fact. one statistic backed by numerical evidence. one source. just something. anything but talking points. is it possible for you to counter my information without just using words? anything? seriously, do you not see how ridiculous your deabte is?

      you stated-

      "GOVERNMENT REGULATES EVERY COMPANY THAT EXISTS, ZACK!"

      aside from both G.S.E.'s and all 20 other lenders subject to C.R.A., provide a list of any other lenders in the remiaining 85% of total housing market share that have .0001% compliance with government regulated lending rules. just one? this is on you. you said government regulates every company that exists.

      now, to stay on topic I will phrase a question this way.

      do you believe the housing collapse, that was the bulk of the recession , was more the governments fault? even though over 85% of lenders were in no way subject to any government regulation. is that what you are getting to? and the total losses in the private sector, (that tax payers like you and me will have to cover in the future), that were over 700% higher then losses in the government controlled sector, still shows that government is more at fault for the housing crisis?

      GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED LENDING(Fannie and Freddie including all Lenders subject to C.R.A.)=***$224.3 BILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 76% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 100% government regulation)

      -PRIVATE SECTOR LENDING=***$1.699 TRILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 83% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 0% government regulation)

      -are these figures not sinking through?

      -im not sure how else to explain it.

      again, the government had absolutley 0% involvement in over 85% of the total housing market share, for almost the last decade and your telling me this crisis is the governments fault!?

      ok, im having fun with you. no offense but this is priceless.

      are you just putting me on to kill time at home? or do you actually believe that blaming government for every problem in this country is enough to get by?

    44. Billie says:

      My point being you could do more with your work instead of using it on comments and research. You've earned it? WOW! And if you tell me your job is your own and can do nothing else for the business, just admits you have no versatility. Unless you work for government, you're depriving the free market business you are employed at, productivity and revenue.

      If you can't understand the words in English under the multiple solutions offered and mentioned, you can only help yourself.

      You seem to refuse to look beneath the surface, where you will see the government lending a helping hand to the banks collapse and the housing crisis. If private lenders started it, why did government continue it? set-ups in many government ways.

      Once the government INTRUDES in the personal lives of people or private businesses that cost both increased taxes, it's compromising freedom, liberties and individual rights. If a business or company is corrupt to their workers or consumers, there are many ways to get justice without paying government to cry on governments shoulder.

      Its not what I believe from Heritage and Conservative media, its what I observe with my own two eyes. It's the life I live, where I know people of various financial and employment status, from wealthy to welfare recipients, from American born, to immigrants.

      You don't seem to recognize facts or evidence. Of course we understand the free market can be just as dangerous and overpowering, Zack. The government is much more dangerous and corrupt. It was the job of the government to protect the consumer or employee from business corruption. It's called government oversight. Government was derelict in their duty! All Obama did was emphasize "greed' and "corruption" to convince the governments need to take-over, instead of doing his said duty to correct the problems to ensure the free market and free economics. This business corruption wouldn't have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job.

      Zack, to live free is to live the life you choose without having government "paid" with your money, to make those choices for you. Life is never a smooth rode, but it is a private one, so you make your own decisions and live up to the responsibilities of them at your expense. Take care of your own existence physically and mentally as you are the only one in control of yourself, or were. Toughen up in hard times and deal with or overcome. Provide for those lives your actions brought into the world. Deal with your own consequences and face the facts. Obama is threatening much!

      It's the core principles of this country that is being eroded. It's what government is forcing from obamas "select" and future generations. It's the force of government mandates on the people. EX: the force of purchase of obamacare. the force of purchase of fluorescent lights. the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc.

    45. Zack says:

      oh, just incase you didn't know already…you have already lost this debate a long long time ago and now it's just becoming extremely pathetic. no offense, but seriously? is this your knowledge of economics and legislative history? is that it?

    46. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "My point being you could do more with your work instead of using it on comments and research. You’ve earned it? WOW! And if you tell me your job is your own and can do nothing else for the business, just admits you have no versatility. Unless you work for government, you’re depriving the free market business you are employed at, productivity and revenue"

      -you have not provided any evidence that you do research. you use the same boring conservative talking points. and when did research not count for understanding economic and legislative history? versatility? you know nothing about what I do and nothing about my company and who the hell are you to offer advise to me? you have nothing but talking points. and im depriving the free market because i post blogs for 10 minutes during my personal down time? are you that interested in my personal life? why are you talking about my personal life and job anyways? how the hell does that contribute anything at all to this debate?

      you stated-

      "If you can’t understand the words in English under the multiple solutions offered and mentioned, you can only help yourself"

      -you have not offered a single solution, nor have conservatives as a whole. what solutions? you have not provided any. all you do is talk about how you hate government and Obama. what solutions? where? i just looked at this debate and you have offered nothing of substance.

      you stated-

      "You seem to refuse to look beneath the surface, where you will see the government lending a helping hand to the banks collapse and the housing crisis. If private lenders started it, why did government continue it? set-ups in many government ways"

      -i never said that government didn't contribute to the collapse. I mentioned and provided evidence at least 3 times that the government is part of this recession. try reading a little better instead of just skimming through which you already admitted you did. who would skim through a debate anyways, espically without offering any substance to a deabte. for the 5th time, government is accountable for 15% of the housing crisis and the losses already reported, the sources i already posted, the numbers, percentages and figures i already posted is solid evidence to who is more accountable. how did government continue? what, if you even know, are you talking about?

      let me provide this again for the 3rd time..

      GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED LENDING(Fannie and Freddie including all Lenders subject to C.R.A.)=***$224.3 BILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 76% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 100% government regulation)

      -PRIVATE SECTOR LENDING=***$1.699 TRILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 83% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 0% government regulation)

      -which sector of lending looks worse to you?

      -which lenders are more accountable for the housing crisis?

      -which lenders had much higher losses?

      -does pure numerical evidence not exist in your mental capacity?

      you stated-

      "Once the government INTRUDES in the personal lives of people or private businesses that cost both increased taxes, it’s compromising freedom, liberties and individual rights. If a business or company is corrupt to their workers or consumers, there are many ways to get justice without paying government to cry on governments shoulder"

      -again, how is the government intruding in the personal lives of people? one example? what tax increases? for individual at $200,000 and shared at $250,000?

      explain in detail how is compromising freedom, liberties and individuals rights. -that is the most ignorant thing i have ever heard. haha. yea, corporate greed and deregulation leaves alot of room for middle class america to retain justice. That has shown so well in this recession! The fact that the private sector markets leave middle class america out to dry, keep them unemployeed, offer nothing? Is that the non-existant justice you are talking about? Government benefits you and me every second of the day and its conservatives like you that demonize it to the point of insanity, yet use it and take advantage of it time and time again. its pure hypocracy!

      you stated-

      "Its not what I believe from Heritage and Conservative media, its what I observe with my own two eyes. It’s the life I live, where I know people of various financial and employment status, from wealthy to welfare recipients, from American born, to immigrants"

      -really? because i have seen many comments with you crediting Heritage. And don't tell me you don't follow conservative media because you are all over Heritage and im willing to bet fox news and conservative radio as well. that is the biggest problem with conservative media. it misguides so many people.

      -so what you see, what you think and what you have experienced individually is more credible then actual legislative and economic history and numerical evidence?

      you stated-

      "You don’t seem to recognize facts or evidence. Of course we understand the free market can be just as dangerous and overpowering, Zack. The government is much more dangerous and corrupt. It was the job of the government to protect the consumer or employee from business corruption. It’s called government oversight. Government was derelict in their duty! All Obama did was emphasize “greed’ and “corruption” to convince the governments need to take-over, instead of doing his said duty to correct the problems to ensure the free market and free economics. This business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job"

      -your telling me i cant seem to recognize facts or evidence. now that is ammusing. what have you provided as facts or evidence aside from talking points? seriously, where is you substance, sources and legislative history??? you literally have provided nothing but talking points and your telling me that i cant recognize your emotional, partisan talking points for evidence? ok, so since your opening this up, please explain to me which facts or evidence you have provided? i think i have asked you over 15 to 20 times now and you still cant seem to bring anything. so your telling me the government is much more dangerous and corrupt? like the example i provided for the housing market showing the free market losses 700% worse then the government losses? or the credit agencies, all other banks, wallstreet, healthcare that are all under free market? again, you blame Obama yet you cant provide evidence and you can't seem to tell me what we should have done? just one alternative solution…? you cant do it! you mentioned "business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job" so you wanted more regulation or you blame government for having nothing to do with the majority of business in the free market. I think you are now starting to confuse yourself. and what job was the government expected to do? regulation, oversight- the very same things that conservatives and republicans have forcefully blocked for over 3 decades now for almost every sector in the market?

      you stated-

      "Zack, to live free is to live the life you choose without having government “paid” with your money, to make those choices for you. Life is never a smooth rode, but it is a private one, so you make your own decisions and live up to the responsibilities of them at your expense. Take care of your own existence physically and mentally as you are the only one in control of yourself, or were. Toughen up in hard times and deal with or overcome. Provide for those lives your actions brought into the world. Deal with your own consequences and face the facts. Obama is threatening much"

      -no offense, but you are one of the last people i would take the slighest bit of advise from. you conservatives demonize government, yet use it everyday. be lucky we have a government in this country! again, what exactly is Obama threatening? please explain?

      you stated-

      "It’s the core principles of this country that is being eroded. It’s what government is forcing from obamas “select” and future generations. It’s the force of government mandates on the people. EX: the force of purchase of obamacare. the force of purchase of fluorescent lights. the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      -which principles? what is Obama forcing anyone to do? there is and never will be a forced purchase of obamacare. read HR 3590. read the mandate section. you can easily opt of any healthcare mandate. it helps to read, unfortunatly, most people choose to stay ignorant. and if it was a mandate, its still completely constitutional under the commerse clause. its helps to read the constitution too!

      "force of purchase of fluorescent lights"!? wow, you sure do by into that conservative media don't you! do you mean businesses that can choose these lights and if so receive tax credits for energy efficiency? individuals have no such force of purchase. "the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      please, please explain.

      -the bottom line is during this entire debate you have offered no facts or evidence aside from talking points. you hate government and obama, yet you offer no solutions yourself like most all other conservatives. you keep coming up with broad statements without any specification. you tell me i have provided no evidence even though i provided about 5 pages worth of numerical evidence, percentages, legislative history, congressional power, sources, statistics and economic history.

      i'm a type fast(proved by my horrific grammar) and i just used about 15 minutes worth of my downtime during my lunch break to try and knock the slightest bit of sense into you. does posting a comment on a website mean that i have just deprived the free market? do you take lunch breaks? do you take small breaks during a busy day? does bringing record profits to my business for the last 12 years, coming early and leaving late, taking 30 minute lunches instead of an hour show i have no versatility?

      no offense, but you might be one of the worst conservatives i have ever debated. im truly sorry to say that. i have already mentioned many times that government is corrupt. i have mentioned that the free market is corrupt. im reasonable and i have earned my knowledge through college and study and have alot to learn, yet you look at things one way, you hate government and you blame every current problem on President Obama and the government and guess what…? its not working and it won't work in november either. you conservatives need the slightest platform aside from tax breaks for the rich and drowning the government. conservatism will be dead if you continue this runaway train packed with pure ignorance and hypocracy.

      now, can you please bring facts and evidence to this debate or will you continue with the boring, used talking points?

    47. Zack says:

      heritage, will you let my comment through? you have not posted over 10 comments this year alone. afraid of opposing viewpoints?

    48. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "My point being you could do more with your work instead of using it on comments and research. You’ve earned it? WOW! And if you tell me your job is your own and can do nothing else for the business, just admits you have no versatility. Unless you work for government, you’re depriving the free market business you are employed at, productivity and revenue"

      -you have not provided any evidence that you do research. you use the same boring conservative talking points. and when did research not count for understanding economic and legislative history? versatility? you know nothing about what I do and nothing about my company and who the heck are you to offer advise to me? you have nothing but talking points. and im depriving the free market because i post blogs for 10 minutes during my personal down time? are you that interested in my personal life? why are you talking about my personal life and job anyways? how the heck does that contribute anything at all to this debate?

      you stated-

      "If you can’t understand the words in English under the multiple solutions offered and mentioned, you can only help yourself"

      -you have not offered a single solution, nor have conservatives as a whole. what solutions? you have not provided any. all you do is talk about how you hate government and Obama. what solutions? where? i just looked at this debate and you have offered nothing of substance.

      you stated-

      "You seem to refuse to look beneath the surface, where you will see the government lending a helping hand to the banks collapse and the housing crisis. If private lenders started it, why did government continue it? set-ups in many government ways"

      -i never said that government didn't contribute to the collapse. I mentioned and provided evidence at least 3 times that the government is part of this recession. try reading a little better instead of just skimming through which you already admitted you did. who would skim through a debate anyways, espically without offering any substance to a deabte. for the 5th time, government is accountable for 15% of the housing crisis and the losses already reported, the sources i already posted, the numbers, percentages and figures i already posted is solid evidence to who is more accountable. how did government continue? what, if you even know, are you talking about?

      let me provide this again for the 3rd time..

      GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED LENDING(Fannie and Freddie including all Lenders subject to C.R.A.)=***$224.3 BILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 76% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 100% government regulation)

      -PRIVATE SECTOR LENDING=***$1.699 TRILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 83% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 0% government regulation)

      -which sector of lending looks worse to you?

      -which lenders are more accountable for the housing crisis?

      -which lenders had much higher losses?

      -does pure numerical evidence not exist in your mental capacity?

      you stated-

      "Once the government INTRUDES in the personal lives of people or private businesses that cost both increased taxes, it’s compromising freedom, liberties and individual rights. If a business or company is corrupt to their workers or consumers, there are many ways to get justice without paying government to cry on governments shoulder"

      -again, how is the government intruding in the personal lives of people? one example? what tax increases? for individual at $200,000 and shared at $250,000?

      explain in detail how is compromising freedom, liberties and individuals rights. -that is the most ignorant thing i have ever heard. haha. yea, corporate greed and deregulation leaves alot of room for middle class america to retain justice. That has shown so well in this recession! The fact that the private sector markets leave middle class america out to dry, keep them unemployeed, offer nothing? Is that the non-existant justice you are talking about? Government benefits you and me every second of the day and its conservatives like you that demonize it to the point of insanity, yet use it and take advantage of it time and time again. its pure hypocracy!

      you stated-

      "Its not what I believe from Heritage and Conservative media, its what I observe with my own two eyes. It’s the life I live, where I know people of various financial and employment status, from wealthy to welfare recipients, from American born, to immigrants"

      -really? because i have seen many comments with you crediting Heritage. And don't tell me you don't follow conservative media because you are all over Heritage and im willing to bet fox news and conservative radio as well. that is the biggest problem with conservative media. it misguides so many people.

      -so what you see, what you think and what you have experienced individually is more credible then actual legislative and economic history and numerical evidence?

      you stated-

      "You don’t seem to recognize facts or evidence. Of course we understand the free market can be just as dangerous and overpowering, Zack. The government is much more dangerous and corrupt. It was the job of the government to protect the consumer or employee from business corruption. It’s called government oversight. Government was derelict in their duty! All Obama did was emphasize “greed’ and “corruption” to convince the governments need to take-over, instead of doing his said duty to correct the problems to ensure the free market and free economics. This business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job"

      -your telling me i cant seem to recognize facts or evidence. now that is ammusing. what have you provided as facts or evidence aside from talking points? seriously, where is you substance, sources and legislative history??? you literally have provided nothing but talking points and your telling me that i cant recognize your emotional, partisan talking points for evidence? ok, so since your opening this up, please explain to me which facts or evidence you have provided? i think i have asked you over 15 to 20 times now and you still cant seem to bring anything. so your telling me the government is much more dangerous and corrupt? like the example i provided for the housing market showing the free market losses 700% worse then the government losses? or the credit agencies, all other banks, wallstreet, healthcare that are all under free market? again, you blame Obama yet you cant provide evidence and you can't seem to tell me what we should have done? just one alternative solution…? you cant do it! you mentioned "business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job" so you wanted more regulation or you blame government for having nothing to do with the majority of business in the free market. I think you are now starting to confuse yourself. and what job was the government expected to do? regulation, oversight- the very same things that conservatives and republicans have forcefully blocked for over 3 decades now for almost every sector in the market?

      you stated-

      "Zack, to live free is to live the life you choose without having government “paid” with your money, to make those choices for you. Life is never a smooth rode, but it is a private one, so you make your own decisions and live up to the responsibilities of them at your expense. Take care of your own existence physically and mentally as you are the only one in control of yourself, or were. Toughen up in hard times and deal with or overcome. Provide for those lives your actions brought into the world. Deal with your own consequences and face the facts. Obama is threatening much"

      -no offense, but you are one of the last people i would take the slighest bit of advise from. you conservatives demonize government, yet use it everyday. be lucky we have a government in this country! again, what exactly is Obama threatening? please explain?

      you stated-

      "It’s the core principles of this country that is being eroded. It’s what government is forcing from obamas “select” and future generations. It’s the force of government mandates on the people. EX: the force of purchase of obamacare. the force of purchase of fluorescent lights. the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      -which principles? what is Obama forcing anyone to do? there is and never will be a forced purchase of obamacare. read HR 3590. read the mandate section. you can easily opt of any healthcare mandate. it helps to read, unfortunatly, most people choose to stay ignorant. and if it was a mandate, its still completely constitutional under the commerse clause. its helps to read the constitution too!

      "force of purchase of fluorescent lights"!? wow, you sure do by into that conservative media don't you! do you mean businesses that can choose these lights and if so receive tax credits for energy efficiency? individuals have no such force of purchase. "the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      please, please explain.

      -the bottom line is during this entire debate you have offered no facts or evidence aside from talking points. you hate government and obama, yet you offer no solutions yourself like most all other conservatives. you keep coming up with broad statements without any specification. you tell me i have provided no evidence even though i provided about 5 pages worth of numerical evidence, percentages, legislative history, congressional power, sources, statistics and economic history.

      i'm a type fast(proved by my horrific grammar) and i just used about 15 minutes worth of my downtime during my lunch break to try and knock the slightest bit of sense into you. does posting a comment on a website mean that i have just deprived the free market? do you take lunch breaks? do you take small breaks during a busy day? does bringing record profits to my business for the last 12 years, coming early and leaving late, taking 30 minute lunches instead of an hour show i have no versatility?

      i have already mentioned many times that government is corrupt. i have mentioned that the free market is corrupt. im reasonable and i have earned my knowledge through college and study and have alot to learn, yet you look at things one way, you hate government and you blame every current problem on President Obama and the government and guess what…? its not working and it won't work in november either. you conservatives need the slightest platform aside from tax breaks for the rich and drowning the government. conservatism will be dead if you continue this runaway train packed with pure ignorance and hypocracy.

      now, can you please bring facts and evidence to this debate or will you continue with the boring, used talking points?

    49. Zack says:

      -I just pulled two quotes from you earlier in this debate that totally contradict each other.

      That is a major contradiction Billy…

      you stated-

      "The government is much more dangerous and corrupt. It was the job of the government to protect the consumer or employee from business corruption. It’s called government oversight. Government was derelict in their duty!"

      then you stated-

      "Obama puts needless regulations and mandates on private sector businesses which leaves private sector more frivolity to deal with."

      So first you admit government oversight and regulation is a necessity within the free markt and then you claim regulations are needless!?

      I thought this was rather ammusing, and yes this is a huge "gotcha". Sorry, but you wrote it :)

      now try to weasle your way out of this one with more talking points!

      Also, the conservative/republican led congress from the 103-109th congress did not pass one single bill for regualtion, regulatory reform or oversight for any single sector of the housing market. That's over 12 years. opencongress.org. votesmart.org. That's your conservative party hard at work, doing absolutely nothing. No suprise, conservatives want to expell government at the very time we need it most. Result, recession!

      this is much too fun!

    50. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "My point being you could do more with your work instead of using it on comments and research. You’ve earned it? WOW! And if you tell me your job is your own and can do nothing else for the business, just admits you have no versatility. Unless you work for government, you’re depriving the free market business you are employed at, productivity and revenue"

      -you have not provided any evidence that you do research. you use the same boring conservative talking points. and when did research not count for understanding economic and legislative history? versatility? you know nothing about what I do and nothing about my company and who the hell are you to offer advise to me? you have nothing but talking points. and im depriving the free market because i post blogs for 10 minutes during my personal down time? are you that interested in my personal life? why are you talking about my personal life and job anyways? how the hell does that contribute anything at all to this debate?

      you stated-

      "If you can’t understand the words in English under the multiple solutions offered and mentioned, you can only help yourself"

      -you have not offered a single solution, nor have conservatives as a whole. what solutions? you have not provided any. all you do is talk about how you hate government and Obama. what solutions? where? i just looked at this debate and you have offered nothing of substance.

      you stated-

      "You seem to refuse to look beneath the surface, where you will see the government lending a helping hand to the banks collapse and the housing crisis. If private lenders started it, why did government continue it? set-ups in many government ways"

      -i never said that government didn't contribute to the collapse. I mentioned and provided evidence at least 3 times that the government is part of this recession. try reading a little better instead of just skimming through which you already admitted you did. who would skim through a debate anyways, espically without offering any substance to a deabte. for the 5th time, government is accountable for 15% of the housing crisis and the losses already reported, the sources i already posted, the numbers, percentages and figures i already posted is solid evidence to who is more accountable. how did government continue? what, if you even know, are you talking about?

    51. Zack says:

      GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED LENDING(Fannie and Freddie including all Lenders subject to C.R.A.)=***$224.3 BILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 76% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 100% government regulation)

      -PRIVATE SECTOR LENDING=***$1.699 TRILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 83% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 0% government regulation)

      -which sector of lending looks worse to you?
      -which lenders are more accountable for the housing crisis?
      -which lenders had much higher losses?
      -does pure numerical evidence not exist in your mental capacity?

      you stated-
      "Once the government INTRUDES in the personal lives of people or private businesses that cost both increased taxes, it’s compromising freedom, liberties and individual rights. If a business or company is corrupt to their workers or consumers, there are many ways to get justice without paying government to cry on governments shoulder"

      -again, how is the government intruding in the personal lives of people? one example? what tax increases? for individual at $200,000 and shared at $250,000?
      explain in detail how is compromising freedom, liberties and individuals rights. -that is the most ignorant thing i have ever heard. haha. yea, corporate greed and deregulation leaves alot of room for middle class america to retain justice. That has shown so well in this recession! The fact that the private sector markets leave middle class america out to dry, keep them unemployeed, offer nothing? Is that the non-existant justice you are talking about? Government benefits you and me every second of the day and its conservatives like you that demonize it to the point of insanity, yet use it and take advantage of it time and time again. its pure hypocracy!

      you stated-
      "Its not what I believe from Heritage and Conservative media, its what I observe with my own two eyes. It’s the life I live, where I know people of various financial and employment status, from wealthy to welfare recipients, from American born, to immigrants"

      -really? because i have seen many comments with you crediting Heritage. And don't tell me you don't follow conservative media because you are all over Heritage and im willing to bet fox news and conservative radio as well. that is the biggest problem with conservative media. it misguides so many people.

      -so what you see, what you think and what you have experienced individually is more credible then actual legislative and economic history and numerical evidence?

    52. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "You don’t seem to recognize facts or evidence. Of course we understand the free market can be just as dangerous and overpowering, Zack. The government is much more dangerous and corrupt. It was the job of the government to protect the consumer or employee from business corruption. It’s called government oversight. Government was derelict in their duty! All Obama did was emphasize “greed’ and “corruption” to convince the governments need to take-over, instead of doing his said duty to correct the problems to ensure the free market and free economics. This business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job"

      -your telling me i cant seem to recognize facts or evidence. now that is ammusing. what have you provided as facts or evidence aside from talking points? seriously, where is you substance, sources and legislative history??? you literally have provided nothing but talking points and your telling me that i cant recognize your emotional, partisan talking points for evidence? ok, so since your opening this up, please explain to me which facts or evidence you have provided? i think i have asked you over 15 to 20 times now and you still cant seem to bring anything. so your telling me the government is much more dangerous and corrupt? like the example i provided for the housing market showing the free market losses 700% worse then the government losses? or the credit agencies, all other banks, wallstreet, healthcare that are all under free market? again, you blame Obama yet you cant provide evidence and you can't seem to tell me what we should have done? just one alternative solution…? you cant do it! you mentioned "business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job" so you wanted more regulation or you blame government for having nothing to do with the majority of business in the free market. I think you are now starting to confuse yourself. and what job was the government expected to do? regulation, oversight- the very same things that conservatives and republicans have forcefully blocked for over 3 decades now for almost every sector in the market?

      you stated-

      "Zack, to live free is to live the life you choose without having government “paid” with your money, to make those choices for you. Life is never a smooth rode, but it is a private one, so you make your own decisions and live up to the responsibilities of them at your expense. Take care of your own existence physically and mentally as you are the only one in control of yourself, or were. Toughen up in hard times and deal with or overcome. Provide for those lives your actions brought into the world. Deal with your own consequences and face the facts. Obama is threatening much"

      -no offense, but you are one of the last people i would take the slighest bit of advise from. you conservatives demonize government, yet use it everyday. be lucky we have a government in this country! again, what exactly is Obama threatening? please explain?

      you stated-

      "It’s the core principles of this country that is being eroded. It’s what government is forcing from obamas “select” and future generations. It’s the force of government mandates on the people. EX: the force of purchase of obamacare. the force of purchase of fluorescent lights. the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      -which principles? what is Obama forcing anyone to do? there is and never will be a forced purchase of obamacare. read HR 3590. read the mandate section. you can easily opt of any healthcare mandate. it helps to read, unfortunatly, most people choose to stay ignorant. and if it was a mandate, its still completely constitutional under the commerse clause. its helps to read the constitution too!

      "force of purchase of fluorescent lights"!? wow, you sure do by into that conservative media don't you! do you mean businesses that can choose these lights and if so receive tax credits for energy efficiency? individuals have no such force of purchase. "the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      please, please explain.

    53. Zack says:

      -the bottom line is during this entire debate you have offered no facts or evidence aside from talking points. you hate government and obama, yet you offer no solutions yourself like most all other conservatives. you keep coming up with broad statements without any specification. you tell me i have provided no evidence even though i provided about 5 pages worth of numerical evidence, percentages, legislative history, congressional power, sources, statistics and economic history.

      i'm a type fast(proved by my horrific grammar) and i just used about 15 minutes worth of my downtime during my lunch break to try and knock the slightest bit of sense into you. does posting a comment on a website mean that i have just deprived the free market? do you take lunch breaks? do you take small breaks during a busy day? does bringing record profits to my business for the last 12 years, coming early and leaving late, taking 30 minute lunches instead of an hour show i have no versatility?

      no offense, but you might be one of the worst conservatives i have ever debated. im truly sorry to say that. i have already mentioned many times that government is corrupt. i have mentioned that the free market is corrupt. im reasonable and i have earned my knowledge through college and study and have alot to learn, yet you look at things one way, you hate government and you blame every current problem on President Obama and the government and guess what…? its not working and it won't work in november either. you conservatives need the slightest platform aside from tax breaks for the rich and drowning the government. conservatism will be dead if you continue this runaway train packed with pure ignorance and hypocracy.

      now, can you please bring facts and evidence to this debate or will you continue with the boring, used talking points?

    54. Zack says:

      I just tried posting a comment that is completely within the rules of the moderators guidelines at the bottom of this page, yet my comment was not posted. I have tried to post the comment 5 times. Heritage, why did you post the previous comment today and not the other one I tried to post yesterday? Are you actually picking and choosing which comments to post? You have not allowed over 10 comments this year alone. How can "debate flourish" when you block the voice of opposition to this website. Is this serious? Please speak up about this, or at least comment on this blog and describe to me exactly why you choose to not post my comments? Im totally available at zhill@penskeautomotive.com. I want an explanation right now or I will let as many people as I possibly can, know about how Heritage moderators handle opposition on this website. Waiting….

    55. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "My point being you could do more with your work instead of using it on comments and research. You’ve earned it? WOW! And if you tell me your job is your own and can do nothing else for the business, just admits you have no versatility. Unless you work for government, you’re depriving the free market business you are employed at, productivity and revenue"

      -you have not provided any evidence that you do research. you use the same boring conservative talking points. and when did research not count for understanding economic and legislative history? versatility? you know nothing about what I do and nothing about my company and who the heck are you to offer advise to me? you have nothing but talking points. and im depriving the free market because i post blogs for 10 minutes during my personal down time? are you that interested in my personal life? why are you talking about my personal life and job anyways? how the heck does that contribute anything at all to this debate?

      you stated-

      "If you can’t understand the words in English under the multiple solutions offered and mentioned, you can only help yourself"

      -you have not offered a single solution, nor have conservatives as a whole. what solutions? you have not provided any. all you do is talk about how you hate government and Obama. what solutions? where? i just looked at this debate and you have offered nothing of substance.

      you stated-

      "You seem to refuse to look beneath the surface, where you will see the government lending a helping hand to the banks collapse and the housing crisis. If private lenders started it, why did government continue it? set-ups in many government ways"

      -i never said that government didn't contribute to the collapse. I mentioned and provided evidence at least 3 times that the government is part of this recession. try reading a little better instead of just skimming through which you already admitted you did. who would skim through a debate anyways, espically without offering any substance to a deabte. for the 5th time, government is accountable for 15% of the housing crisis and the losses already reported, the sources i already posted, the numbers, percentages and figures i already posted is solid evidence to who is more accountable. how did government continue? what, if you even know, are you talking about?

      let me provide this again for the 3rd time..

      GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED LENDING(Fannie and Freddie including all Lenders subject to C.R.A.)=***$224.3 BILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 76% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 100% government regulation)

      -PRIVATE SECTOR LENDING=***$1.699 TRILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 83% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 0% government regulation)

      -which sector of lending looks worse to you?

      -which lenders are more accountable for the housing crisis?

      -which lenders had much higher losses?

      -does pure numerical evidence not exist in your mental capacity?

      you stated-

      "Once the government INTRUDES in the personal lives of people or private businesses that cost both increased taxes, it’s compromising freedom, liberties and individual rights. If a business or company is corrupt to their workers or consumers, there are many ways to get justice without paying government to cry on governments shoulder"

      -again, how is the government intruding in the personal lives of people? one example? what tax increases? for individual at $200,000 and shared at $250,000?

      explain in detail how is compromising freedom, liberties and individuals rights. -that is the most ignorant thing i have ever heard. haha. yea, corporate greed and deregulation leaves alot of room for middle class america to retain justice. That has shown so well in this recession! The fact that the private sector markets leave middle class america out to dry, keep them unemployeed, offer nothing? Is that the non-existant justice you are talking about? Government benefits you and me every second of the day and its conservatives like you that demonize it to the point of insanity, yet use it and take advantage of it time and time again. its pure hypocracy!

      you stated-

      "Its not what I believe from Heritage and Conservative media, its what I observe with my own two eyes. It’s the life I live, where I know people of various financial and employment status, from wealthy to welfare recipients, from American born, to immigrants"

      -really? because i have seen many comments with you crediting Heritage. And don't tell me you don't follow conservative media because you are all over Heritage and im willing to bet fox news and conservative radio as well. that is the biggest problem with conservative media. it misguides so many people.

      -so what you see, what you think and what you have experienced individually is more credible then actual legislative and economic history and numerical evidence?

      you stated-

      "You don’t seem to recognize facts or evidence. Of course we understand the free market can be just as dangerous and overpowering, Zack. The government is much more dangerous and corrupt. It was the job of the government to protect the consumer or employee from business corruption. It’s called government oversight. Government was derelict in their duty! All Obama did was emphasize “greed’ and “corruption” to convince the governments need to take-over, instead of doing his said duty to correct the problems to ensure the free market and free economics. This business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job"

      -your telling me i cant seem to recognize facts or evidence. now that is ammusing. what have you provided as facts or evidence aside from talking points? seriously, where is you substance, sources and legislative history??? you literally have provided nothing but talking points and your telling me that i cant recognize your emotional, partisan talking points for evidence? ok, so since your opening this up, please explain to me which facts or evidence you have provided? i think i have asked you over 15 to 20 times now and you still cant seem to bring anything. so your telling me the government is much more dangerous and corrupt? like the example i provided for the housing market showing the free market losses 700% worse then the government losses? or the credit agencies, all other banks, wallstreet, healthcare that are all under free market? again, you blame Obama yet you cant provide evidence and you can't seem to tell me what we should have done? just one alternative solution…? you cant do it! you mentioned "business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job" so you wanted more regulation or you blame government for having nothing to do with the majority of business in the free market. I think you are now starting to confuse yourself. and what job was the government expected to do? regulation, oversight- the very same things that conservatives and republicans have forcefully blocked for over 3 decades now for almost every sector in the market?

      you stated-

      "Zack, to live free is to live the life you choose without having government “paid” with your money, to make those choices for you. Life is never a smooth rode, but it is a private one, so you make your own decisions and live up to the responsibilities of them at your expense. Take care of your own existence physically and mentally as you are the only one in control of yourself, or were. Toughen up in hard times and deal with or overcome. Provide for those lives your actions brought into the world. Deal with your own consequences and face the facts. Obama is threatening much"

      -no offense, but you are one of the last people i would take the slighest bit of advise from. you conservatives demonize government, yet use it everyday. be lucky we have a government in this country! again, what exactly is Obama threatening? please explain?

      you stated-

      "It’s the core principles of this country that is being eroded. It’s what government is forcing from obamas “select” and future generations. It’s the force of government mandates on the people. EX: the force of purchase of obamacare. the force of purchase of fluorescent lights. the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      -which principles? what is Obama forcing anyone to do? there is and never will be a forced purchase of obamacare. read HR 3590. read the mandate section. you can easily opt of any healthcare mandate. it helps to read, unfortunatly, most people choose to stay ignorant. and if it was a mandate, its still completely constitutional under the commerse clause. its helps to read the constitution too!

      "force of purchase of fluorescent lights"!? wow, you sure do by into that conservative media don't you! do you mean businesses that can choose these lights and if so receive tax credits for energy efficiency? individuals have no such force of purchase. "the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      please, please explain.

      -the bottom line is during this entire debate you have offered no facts or evidence aside from talking points. you hate government and obama, yet you offer no solutions yourself like most all other conservatives. you keep coming up with broad statements without any specification. you tell me i have provided no evidence even though i provided about 5 pages worth of numerical evidence, percentages, legislative history, congressional power, sources, statistics and economic history.

      i'm a type fast(proved by my horrific grammar) and i just used about 15 minutes worth of my downtime during my lunch break to try and knock the slightest bit of sense into you. does posting a comment on a website mean that i have just deprived the free market? do you take lunch breaks? do you take small breaks during a busy day? does bringing record profits to my business for the last 12 years, coming early and leaving late, taking 30 minute lunches instead of an hour show i have no versatility?

      no offense, but you might be one of the worst conservatives i have ever debated. im truly sorry to say that. i have already mentioned many times that government is corrupt. i have mentioned that the free market is corrupt. im reasonable and i have earned my knowledge through college and study and have alot to learn, yet you look at things one way, you hate government and you blame every current problem on President Obama and the government and guess what…? its not working and it won't work in november either. you conservatives need the slightest platform aside from tax breaks for the rich and drowning the government. conservatism will be dead if you continue this runaway train packed with pure ignorance and hypocracy.

      now, can you please bring facts and evidence to this debate or will you continue with the boring, used talking points?

    56. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "You don’t seem to recognize facts or evidence. Of course we understand the free market can be just as dangerous and overpowering, Zack. The government is much more dangerous and corrupt. It was the job of the government to protect the consumer or employee from business corruption. It’s called government oversight. Government was derelict in their duty! All Obama did was emphasize “greed’ and “corruption” to convince the governments need to take-over, instead of doing his said duty to correct the problems to ensure the free market and free economics. This business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job"

      -your telling me i cant seem to recognize facts or evidence. now that is ammusing. what have you provided as facts or evidence aside from talking points? seriously, where is you substance, sources and legislative history??? you literally have provided nothing but talking points and your telling me that i cant recognize your emotional, partisan talking points for evidence? ok, so since your opening this up, please explain to me which facts or evidence you have provided? i think i have asked you over 15 to 20 times now and you still cant seem to bring anything. so your telling me the government is much more dangerous and corrupt? like the example i provided for the housing market showing the free market losses 700% worse then the government losses? or the credit agencies, all other banks, wallstreet, healthcare that are all under free market? again, you blame Obama yet you cant provide evidence and you can't seem to tell me what we should have done? just one alternative solution…? you cant do it! you mentioned "business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job" so you wanted more regulation or you blame government for having nothing to do with the majority of business in the free market. I think you are now starting to confuse yourself. and what job was the government expected to do? regulation, oversight- the very same things that conservatives and republicans have forcefully blocked for over 3 decades now for almost every sector in the market?

      you stated-

      "Zack, to live free is to live the life you choose without having government “paid” with your money, to make those choices for you. Life is never a smooth rode, but it is a private one, so you make your own decisions and live up to the responsibilities of them at your expense. Take care of your own existence physically and mentally as you are the only one in control of yourself, or were. Toughen up in hard times and deal with or overcome. Provide for those lives your actions brought into the world. Deal with your own consequences and face the facts. Obama is threatening much"

      -no offense, but you are one of the last people i would take the slighest bit of advise from. you conservatives demonize government, yet use it everyday. be lucky we have a government in this country! again, what exactly is Obama threatening? please explain?

      you stated-

      "It’s the core principles of this country that is being eroded. It’s what government is forcing from obamas “select” and future generations. It’s the force of government mandates on the people. EX: the force of purchase of obamacare. the force of purchase of fluorescent lights. the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      -which principles? what is Obama forcing anyone to do? there is and never will be a forced purchase of obamacare. read HR 3590. read the mandate section. you can easily opt of any healthcare mandate. it helps to read, unfortunatly, most people choose to stay ignorant. and if it was a mandate, its still completely constitutional under the commerse clause. its helps to read the constitution too!

      "force of purchase of fluorescent lights"!? wow, you sure do by into that conservative media don't you! do you mean businesses that can choose these lights and if so receive tax credits for energy efficiency? individuals have no such force of purchase. "the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      please, please explain.

    57. Zack says:

      Heritage, I can cleary see what you are doing and this is your last warning. DO NOT pick and choose which of my comments to post. You clearly took out 6 full paragraphs of a comment that I left after not deciding to post it in the first place. Do you moderators really look upon your job with honesty and class for what you are doing to the voice of opposition? I will make it my number one goal for the next few months to ensure as many people as I can possibly reach that (The Heritage Foundation Moderators) are forcefully silencing the opposition. Again, last warning. Post the comment i just left. I can be very open about this website to many many people. Don't test me.

    58. Zack says:

      I have already copied and pasted the original comments i posted and made sure to add the name, date and "your comment is awaiting moderation" part so it can be easily proved. don't be cowards. post my comment. when facts and evidence are presented they should get posted. stop keeping truth from your followers. its pathetic and embarrasing.

    59. Zack says:

      HERE IS THE FULL COMMENT I POSTED. THE PART YOU INTENTIONALLY TOOK

      OUT IS MARKED FARTHER BELOW FROM THE FIRST SMILEY FACE TO THE SECOND

      SMILEY FACE. BE A MAN OR WOMAN AND HAVE JUST A LITTLE CLASS COWARDS.

      Zack on August 10th, 2010 at 4:00pm said:-

      Your comment is awaiting moderation.

      THE PART DIRECTLY ABOVE WITH NAME, DATE AND TIME PROVE I POSTED IT AND IT WAS

      AWAITING MODERATION, YET YOU LEAVE OUT THE PARTS FARTHER BELOW MARKED FROM

      THE FIRST SMILEY FACE TO THE SECOND SMILEY FACE

      I

      you stated-

      "My point being you could do more with your work instead of using it on comments and research. You’ve earned it? WOW! And if you tell me your job is your own and can do nothing else for the business, just admits you have no versatility. Unless you work for government, you’re depriving the free market business you are employed at, productivity and revenue"

      -you have not provided any evidence that you do research. you use the same boring conservative talking points. and when did research not count for understanding economic and legislative history? versatility? you know nothing about what I do and nothing about my company and who the heck are you to offer advise to me? you have nothing but talking points. and im depriving the free market because i post blogs for 10 minutes during my personal down time? are you that interested in my personal life? why are you talking about my personal life and job anyways? how the heck does that contribute anything at all to this debate?

      you stated-

      "If you can’t understand the words in English under the multiple solutions offered and mentioned, you can only help yourself"

      -you have not offered a single solution, nor have conservatives as a whole. what solutions? you have not provided any. all you do is talk about how you hate government and Obama. what solutions? where? i just looked at this debate and you have offered nothing of substance.

      you stated-

      "You seem to refuse to look beneath the surface, where you will see the government lending a helping hand to the banks collapse and the housing crisis. If private lenders started it, why did government continue it? set-ups in many government ways"

      -i never said that government didn't contribute to the collapse. I mentioned and provided evidence at least 3 times that the government is part of this recession. try reading a little better instead of just skimming through which you already admitted you did. who would skim through a debate anyways, espically without offering any substance to a deabte. for the 5th time, government is accountable for 15% of the housing crisis and the losses already reported, the sources i already posted, the numbers, percentages and figures i already posted is solid evidence to who is more accountable. how did government continue? what, if you even know, are you talking about?

      let me provide this again for the 3rd time..

      GOVERNMENT CONTROLLED LENDING(Fannie and Freddie including all Lenders subject to C.R.A.)=***$224.3 BILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 76% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 100% government regulation)

      -PRIVATE SECTOR LENDING=***$1.699 TRILLION*** IN LOSSES WITH A 83% AVERAGE BOTTOM LINE LOSS(these lenders had 0% government regulation)

      -which sector of lending looks worse to you?

      -which lenders are more accountable for the housing crisis?

      -which lenders had much higher losses?

      -does pure numerical evidence not exist in your mental capacity?

      you stated-

      "Once the government INTRUDES in the personal lives of people or private businesses that cost both increased taxes, it’s compromising freedom, liberties and individual rights. If a business or company is corrupt to their workers or consumers, there are many ways to get justice without paying government to cry on governments shoulder"

      -again, how is the government intruding in the personal lives of people? one example? what tax increases? for individual at $200,000 and shared at $250,000?

      explain in detail how is compromising freedom, liberties and individuals rights. -that is the most ignorant thing i have ever heard. haha. yea, corporate greed and deregulation leaves alot of room for middle class america to retain justice. That has shown so well in this recession! The fact that the private sector markets leave middle class america out to dry, keep them unemployeed, offer nothing? Is that the non-existant justice you are talking about? Government benefits you and me every second of the day and its conservatives like you that demonize it to the point of insanity, yet use it and take advantage of it time and time again. its pure hypocracy!

      you stated-

      "Its not what I believe from Heritage and Conservative media, its what I observe with my own two eyes. It’s the life I live, where I know people of various financial and employment status, from wealthy to welfare recipients, from American born, to immigrants"

      -really? because i have seen many comments with you crediting Heritage. And don't tell me you don't follow conservative media because you are all over Heritage and im willing to bet fox news and conservative radio as well. that is the biggest problem with conservative media. it misguides so many people.

      -so what you see, what you think and what you have experienced individually is more credible then actual legislative and economic history and numerical evidence?

      :)you stated-

      "You don’t seem to recognize facts or evidence. Of course we understand the free market can be just as dangerous and overpowering, Zack. The government is much more dangerous and corrupt. It was the job of the government to protect the consumer or employee from business corruption. It’s called government oversight. Government was derelict in their duty! All Obama did was emphasize “greed’ and “corruption” to convince the governments need to take-over, instead of doing his said duty to correct the problems to ensure the free market and free economics. This business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job"

      -your telling me i cant seem to recognize facts or evidence. now that is ammusing. what have you provided as facts or evidence aside from talking points? seriously, where is you substance, sources and legislative history??? you literally have provided nothing but talking points and your telling me that i cant recognize your emotional, partisan talking points for evidence? ok, so since your opening this up, please explain to me which facts or evidence you have provided? i think i have asked you over 15 to 20 times now and you still cant seem to bring anything. so your telling me the government is much more dangerous and corrupt? like the example i provided for the housing market showing the free market losses 700% worse then the government losses? or the credit agencies, all other banks, wallstreet, healthcare that are all under free market? again, you blame Obama yet you cant provide evidence and you can't seem to tell me what we should have done? just one alternative solution…? you cant do it! you mentioned "business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job" so you wanted more regulation or you blame government for having nothing to do with the majority of business in the free market. I think you are now starting to confuse yourself. and what job was the government expected to do? regulation, oversight- the very same things that conservatives and republicans have forcefully blocked for over 3 decades now for almost every sector in the market?

      you stated-

      "Zack, to live free is to live the life you choose without having government “paid” with your money, to make those choices for you. Life is never a smooth rode, but it is a private one, so you make your own decisions and live up to the responsibilities of them at your expense. Take care of your own existence physically and mentally as you are the only one in control of yourself, or were. Toughen up in hard times and deal with or overcome. Provide for those lives your actions brought into the world. Deal with your own consequences and face the facts. Obama is threatening much"

      -no offense, but you are one of the last people i would take the slighest bit of advise from. you conservatives demonize government, yet use it everyday. be lucky we have a government in this country! again, what exactly is Obama threatening? please explain?

      you stated-

      "It’s the core principles of this country that is being eroded. It’s what government is forcing from obamas “select” and future generations. It’s the force of government mandates on the people. EX: the force of purchase of obamacare. the force of purchase of fluorescent lights. the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      -which principles? what is Obama forcing anyone to do? there is and never will be a forced purchase of obamacare. read HR 3590. read the mandate section. you can easily opt of any healthcare mandate. it helps to read, unfortunatly, most people choose to stay ignorant. and if it was a mandate, its still completely constitutional under the commerse clause. its helps to read the constitution too!

      "force of purchase of fluorescent lights"!? wow, you sure do by into that conservative media don't you! do you mean businesses that can choose these lights and if so receive tax credits for energy efficiency? individuals have no such force of purchase. "the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      please, please explain:)

      -the bottom line is during this entire debate you have offered no facts or evidence aside from talking points. you hate government and obama, yet you offer no solutions yourself like most all other conservatives. you keep coming up with broad statements without any specification. you tell me i have provided no evidence even though i provided about 5 pages worth of numerical evidence, percentages, legislative history, congressional power, sources, statistics and economic history.

      i'm a type fast(proved by my horrific grammar) and i just used about 15 minutes worth of my downtime during my lunch break to try and knock the slightest bit of sense into you. does posting a comment on a website mean that i have just deprived the free market? do you take lunch breaks? do you take small breaks during a busy day? does bringing record profits to my business for the last 12 years, coming early and leaving late, taking 30 minute lunches instead of an hour show i have no versatility?

      no offense, but you might be one of the worst conservatives i have ever debated. im truly sorry to say that. i have already mentioned many times that government is corrupt. i have mentioned that the free market is corrupt. im reasonable and i have earned my knowledge through college and study and have alot to learn, yet you look at things one way, you hate government and you blame every current problem on President Obama and the government and guess what…? its not working and it won't work in november either. you conservatives need the slightest platform aside from tax breaks for the rich and drowning the government. conservatism will be dead if you continue this runaway train packed with pure ignorance and hypocracy.

      now, can you please bring facts and evidence to this debate or will you continue with the boring, used talking points?

    60. Zack says:

      WHAT A PATHETIC JOB YOU MODERATORS HAVE! WHAT A PATHETIC PARTY THE GOP HAS BECOME!

    61. Billie says:

      And what was behind the loss of the trillion dollars in private sector lending, sweetie? GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS! With government promise to bail them out. And because of government regulations that caused this and many more crisis' to come, who suffers the consequences, Zack? When private sector takes a loss, it's their accountability and their loss. Unless of course government bails them out! Then it's the tax payers, Who increases government, Zack? GOVERNMENT. THEY WANT YOU TO SEE government being the "better" guy WITHOUT CONSIDERING ALL ACCOUNTS OF THE MATTERS! Government is too corrupt to do it's job with diligence when it comes to their claimed duty of "oversight"! THEY FAILED and because THEY FAILED we;re in these messes.

      Regulating businesses out of business isn't working. Punishing businesses for following government ignorance just shows childish, unfair yet dangerous, leadership.

      i observe, sweetie. Logic is the only role to know the outcome of matters. You see numbers by sectors and point fingers. Look deeper taking factors into account to conclude THE REAL CULPRITS. Government set-up the private sector and people like you to see it the way government exploited it to be. Sweetie, you can assume anything you want about me, but I only speak truth. I love the Heritage Foundation as they're writings regard many necessary concerns endangering the American way to live free.

      Zack, the first paragraph of your last comment, pardon us, we give people credit to figure things out on their own, when the words are written in English. 2nd paragraph, try not to take things so personally. The last paragraph, gols, I almost feel flattered. Zack, you need to realize how deep the corruption goes. Of course we need government for everything that doesn't interfere in the freedoms of Americans, under civil law. We the people use our thoughts and ideas to make things happen. The presidents words and actions are concerning. Please, respect and accept this! You can do it Zack, with your own natural ability. You had college education, now you just need to open your mind to cause and effect. The cause is government the effect is bigger government, why don't you see this? Take care., Zack. Please, take good care.

    62. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "You don’t seem to recognize facts or evidence. Of course we understand the free market can be just as dangerous and overpowering, Zack. The government is much more dangerous and corrupt. It was the job of the government to protect the consumer or employee from business corruption. It’s called government oversight. Government was derelict in their duty! All Obama did was emphasize “greed’ and “corruption” to convince the governments need to take-over, instead of doing his said duty to correct the problems to ensure the free market and free economics. This business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job"

      -your telling me i cant seem to recognize facts or evidence. now that is ammusing. what have you provided as facts or evidence aside from talking points? seriously, where is your substance, sources and legislative history??? you literally have provided nothing but talking points and your telling me that i cant recognize your emotional, partisan talking points for evidence? ok, so since your opening this up, please explain to me which facts or evidence you have provided? i think i have asked you over 15 times now and you still cant seem to bring anything. so your telling me the government is much more dangerous and corrupt? like the example i provided for the housing market showing the free market losses 700% worse then the government losses? or the credit agencies, all other banks, wallstreet, healthcare that are all under free market? you blame Obama yet you cant provide evidence and you can't seem to tell me what we should have done? just one alternative solution? you mentioned "business corruption wouldn’t have come to be in the first place, if government did their tax payer paid job" so you wanted more regulation or you blame government for having nothing to do with the majority of business in the free market. I think you are now starting to confuse yourself. and what job was the government expected to do? regulation, oversight- the very same things that conservatives and republicans have forcefully blocked for over 3 decades now for almost every sector in the market?

      you stated-

      "Zack, to live free is to live the life you choose without having government “paid” with your money, to make those choices for you. Life is never a smooth rode, but it is a private one, so you make your own decisions and live up to the responsibilities of them at your expense. Take care of your own existence physically and mentally as you are the only one in control of yourself, or were. Toughen up in hard times and deal with or overcome. Provide for those lives your actions brought into the world. Deal with your own consequences and face the facts. Obama is threatening much"

      -wait, are you offering me advise….no thanks! conservatives demonize government, yet use it everyday. be lucky we have a government in this country! again, what exactly is Obama threatening? please explain?

      you stated-

      "It’s the core principles of this country that is being eroded. It’s what government is forcing from obamas “select” and future generations. It’s the force of government mandates on the people. EX: the force of purchase of obamacare. the force of purchase of fluorescent lights. the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      -which principles? what is Obama forcing anyone to do? there is and never will be a forced purchase of obamacare. read HR 3590. read the mandate section. you can easily opt of any healthcare mandate. it helps to read, unfortunatly, most people choose to stay ignorant. and if it was a mandate, its still completely constitutional under the commerse clause. its helps to read the constitution too!

      "force of purchase of fluorescent lights"!? wow, you sure do by into that conservative media don't you! do you mean businesses that can choose these lights and if so receive tax credits for energy efficiency? individuals have no such force of purchase. "the force of direction of transportation. lifestyle habits, etc"

      please, please explain.

      • Brandon Stewart Brandon Stewart says:

        Zach: Here on out, we will only approve comments that are shorter than the actual blog they are commenting on.

    63. Zack says:

      Brandon,

      what about the other hundreds of comments on hundreds of other blogs that are longer then the blogs themselves. Oh, is this a new guideline for Heritage for just me? The reason my blogs are so long is because it takes so much time to correct the people that follow this website for truth and correct the bias, pitiful incorrect information in just about every blog since this website started. Heritage constantly lies and misinforms the public with false information, rhetoric, skewed numbers, and pitiful, almost embarrasing partisanship. I can understand this is a conservative website but you have to draw the line somewhere. The problem is people believe in the bloggers on this website and vote accordingly at election time. That's the largest problem with this country, websites like this. Something so simple as both bush tax cuts. They didn't help the economy, they were geared to the rich, trickle down does not work and they will cost us 2.5 trillion dollars over a 10 year span. These are solid facts, and that's all they need to be, yet Heritage spins everything they possibly can. Another thing that shows Heritage's lack of credibility is the fact that they are against President Obama 100% and Democrats for the most part. Heritage is so one-sided. Heritage can't find a single thing to support Obama or Democrats, not because they cant, but because they wont. I know what Heritage is about-dumbing down the country.This Website is destructive and every person employeed here is contributing to the ignorance of this nation and that is just the way it is. I believe in freedom of speech and press but no single person can dispute the bias, harmful nature of this website. The most popular idol for Heritage is Reagan. Reagan doubled the national debt, period. If conservative do win an election in november its directly due to Conservative media getting the best of people's intelligence and fear mongering the public with false information about our President. Im truly dissapointed in the way this country is acting and espically with websites like this. This comment was not longer then the blog and it was completely civil so do yourself a favor and post it. I find no point in posting comments on this website anymore. It's like talking to a brick wall.

      • Conn Carroll Conn Carroll says:

        Zack-
        This is a new guideline. We try to minimize how much time we spend approving comments and we have decided that this length rule would be a better use of our resources.
        If you still need to make longer arguments, GYOB, and then link back to it in the comments. We allow links to other sites all the time.
        Thanks for reading.
        -Conn

    64. Zack says:

      That's the entire problem. What I presented was not "arguments". It's legislative and economic history backed by numerical evidence. You guys post blogs and reference sources back to other blogs already on this website. How can you expect anyone to find this website credible? Your blogs are far from the truth time and time again. Continue dumbing down the nation, it's working really well :)

    65. Bobbie says:

      Just a response in case Zack might happen to peek. Thank you sincerely, for your generosity, Heritage..and patience.

      Maybe "force" was too direct, but if non compliant, there will be regret in most unfair ways. Zack must be of the naive? God Bless!

      Which principles? The American principles of freedom liberty and individual rights.

      Just the fact it's under a mandate says enough. Government run health care isn't constitutional.

      The governor of this state purposed a mandate on the usage of fluorescent lighting. The potential force is in this country and in the face on more then just light bulbs.

      my comments are things that are intended to be figured out for oneself. What pertains to the privacy of ones own living. No explanation necessary

      Zack is right about Heritage being on one side though, the side of the freedom of America and all that applies.

    66. Billie says:

      Correction!!!! That last comment was me, I was accidentally on my sister's address Is it possible to correct? Sorry!

    67. Billie says:

      Just a response in case Zack might happen to peek. Thank you sincerely, for your generosity, Heritage..and patience.

      Maybe "force" was too direct, but if non compliant, there will be regret in most unfair ways. Zack must be of the naive? God Bless!

      Which principles? The American principles of freedom liberty and individual rights.

      Just the fact it's under a mandate says enough. Government run health care isn't constitutional.

      The governor of this state purposed a mandate on the usage of fluorescent lighting. The potential force is in this country and in the face on more then just light bulbs.

      my comments are things that are intended to be figured out for oneself. What pertains to the privacy of ones own living. No explanation necessary

      Zack is right about Heritage being on one side though, the side of the freedom of America and all that applies.

    68. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "No explanation necessary"

      thank you for summing up everything I was trying to explain regarding your form of debate. You seem to not be interested in facts or hard evidence and that's your problem. You insist on nothing but talking points.

      Infact, your comments do not make sense.. It's all unsourced, non-factual opinions and that is just not good enough. Try to research and study a little more.

      This is one truly pathetic debate on your part. You answer nothing, you skim through everything written and just come up with more talking points. Economic and Legislative history is what people should value when you vote, not fear-mongering assumptions, unwarranted mis-information and constant negativity about President Obama and Democrats. Again, study a little more and remember how we got into this recession in the first place. I provided facts, evidence, Legislative and Economic history backed by sources and numericall evidence. You made no such attempt and that seems to be the norm with most conservatives these days. All attacks and no solutions. It's pathetic.

      I'm truly dissapointed that people like you follow this website as truth and valued information. It's beyond pathetic. You lost this debate a long time ago and you keep digging yourself in a deeper hole. So, now I wait for another response. Could you possibly provide just one source? One fact? One number? Anything? Or should I expect more talking points?

    69. Zack says:

      again.

      85% of the entire housing market share that had nothing to do with government that fell apart, is the governments fault that 85% of the entire market share losses are in the private sector? So you want the bulk of the housing market share to just crumble? Would you have rather not bailed out these private lenders and gone into a depression? Would you have rather had job losses at over a million a month? Would you have rather had unemployment at 15%? People like you will never understand. You should give up all your future social security checks, medicare or medicade, never be allowed to use the postal service, roads, transportation, Affordable housing, etc. You should be denied everything that the government offers, everything. That's what you stand for and if it was up to me, for people like you that demonize the government everyday without the ability to reason, I would take everything you have ever received from our government. You are not educated in economics, you do not understand the housing collapse, you will refuse to reason with anything other then your brain, so I find educating you pointless. I look at both sides, reason and find faults in my own party and President Obama. You don't. You look at things one way and that will never change. I'm so thankful I do not think the way you do and the most ammusing part is that you actually, truly believe in this rhetoric you write. Again, pitiful.

    70. Zack says:

      I want numbers, sources and evidence that this housing collapse is more the governments fault. I'm still waiting for an answer. Where is your proof? Where are your souces? Explain to me how a free market failure is the governments fault. Go ahead, please explain. Talking points don't work with me. Wating….

    71. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "And what was behind the loss of the trillion dollars in private sector lending, sweetie? GOVERNMENT REGULATIONS! With government promise to bail them out. And because of government regulations that caused this and many more crisis’ to come, who suffers the consequences"

      -the government had nothing set up with these private sector lenders. what are you talking about? the government never promised to bail any of these private lenders out. After these private lenders fell on their own accord the administration then had to make a decision. Let them fail which would surely cause a depression, raise unemployment and increase job losses, how could it not? The government had no involvement until it was needed. This housing market failure was more of a free market, free enterprise failure, no question. How could government regulations have caused the housing collapse when 85% of all lenders had absolutley no government regulation or oversight? Again, what are you talking about? Your making up information as you go. You can't just make things up espically after not taking any time to research, study and understand economics.

      Your ruining your credibility everytime you comment. 1.699 trillion in losses was directly due to, and only due to the private sector Lenders that the government had 0% involvement with. That's why the housing collapse happened, its old news. Your telling me it was government, when 85% of the housing market was never regulated by the government? The entire problem was having no regulation and or oversight? Have you studied economics at all?

      Please keep leaving comments! It's beyond hysterical!

    72. Zack says:

      I don't mean for this to be a personal attack, but you truly have alot to learn. Have you ever studied economics? The banking industry, the housing market, previous legislation, etc.? When someone asks for you to provide facts as to what you comment on, you do it to maintain credibility. Unless you provide anything of substance, it kills your debate. Do you not realize that? It's the same with healthcare. Healthcare is failing on its own, that why reform is needed.

      Let me try this in a simple way.

      private lenders(0% government/100% free market based)

      -1.699 trillion in losses.

      -and you blame the government?

    73. Billie says:

      Zack says: "85% of the entire housing market share that had nothing to do with government that fell apart,"

      me: If it failed because of their own actions, then so be it. That's accountability and what business is all about. Someone else will have it.

      Zack asks "So you want the bulk of the housing market share to just crumble?" Of course I don't believe in this rhetoric. It would have opened new businesses and more jobs had the people their own money.

      Zack: Would you have rather not bailed out these private lenders and gone into a depression? " Yes. Although, I believe with the intelligence of the American people and honest business owners, this would be avoided at all costs. Who will ever know? The president has the money.

      Zack: You should be denied everything that the government offers, everything. me: Your right, I should. It would make me wise and strong to make my own way,.

      Zack says, "You are not educated in economics, you do not understand the housing collapse, you will refuse to reason with anything other then your brain," Me: is that how they brain washed you in high school? I look at statistics and the actions that brought them to be. You look at statistics and listen to government rhetoric You don't realize how much of your brain you"re not using. .

      It's simpler then you're making it out to be.

    74. Zack says:

      I'm glad your showing me what I already knew and what conservatives are all about. At least you are being honest. You would rather go into a depression, have higher unemployment and let the private comanies fail, have millions of job losses and then expect the same company or other companies to just magically take over and have an immediate success with the already failed business? Wow, you really don't understand the housing market and your attacking me for being brain washed? -you follow Heritage and that's enough brainwashing to go around for a long, long time!

      You look at statistics huh? Could you provide some statistical evidence then? I have. Also, ive asked you many times to provide your sources or evidence and you have not. So does using your brain consist of talking points alone or does constant research, a degree in economics, detailed research and study account for using your brain. You seem to be using very little resources.

      Also, your argument is becoming weak. First you blame government for the housing crisis, even though 85% of the housing market share was private lenders, then you blame government for being behind the crisis, even though C.R.A. and G.S.E.'s made up for only 15% of the entire market share and the other 85% was never, ever touched by the government in any way, shape or form, then you say it was governments fault for bailing out the companies even though we have had more then enough time to let these private companies fix themselves, which they did not, then you say you would rather let the entire economy collapse, lose millions of jobs and go into a possible depression because the free market has such wonderful business ethics. Your all over the place!

      Then you say It’s simpler then you’re making it out to be. Actually, its not. This recession was very complex and included many private sector and government flaws. It happened way before this Administration was in power. It grew during conservative/republican congressional and executive control. A constant block of regulatory reform, new reform and lack of oversight was brought on by the very people you voted for.

      Not a single piece of legislation regarding regulatory reform and oversight for the housing market was passed into public law from the 103rd to 109th congress(all led by conservatives/republicans) by an overwhelming majority, as well as the Bush Administration. 12 years of failed policy.

      And no, you are not thinking for yourself. The mere fact that you follow Heritage says it all for me.

      At this point in the debate, which you already lost way back, I feel embarrased for you. I truly do.

      Will you finally provide economic and legislative history, sources, evidence, numbers, statistics or will you keep telling me government is the big bad monster? Something? Just one factual point of reference?

    75. Zack says:

      Deregulation has been going on with conservatives for over 3 decades anyways. Espically in the 1980s, when President Reagan's administration championed "deregulation," an initiative that contributed to the Savings and Loan crisis. In Reagans first term, important rules(regulation and oversight) for the operation of S & Ls disappeared. Some S & L executives then provided questionable loans and rushed into highly speculative investments. When their institutions got into trouble in 1985, the executives tried to conceal embarrassing information from the public and eventually went under. (The exact same things happened during the Bush Administration and Republican led congress, even back to Clinton's second term-(Graham Leachy!)This Savings and Loan Crisis was a very clear market crash, caused by lack of Government or rather Conservative fear mongered demonization of Government! Not to mention Reagan(the Heritage Messiah), was able to double the national debt. Not sure why Heritage and Conservatives credit Reagan as much as they do. I assume with the lack of credible conservatives, he was the "least worst". An actor turned politician with pitiful diplomacy. Ha, anyways, Bille, your arguement holds no water, you provide no sources or evidence and you use the same conservative talking points and demonize government the same way conservatives have been doing now for decades. It's not working! Actions speak louder then words! Will Heritage block this comment becasue i trashed Reagan? Lets see if they do….

      Billie, your up. Substance please!!! just the slightest bit of substance….?

    76. Zack says:

      Heritage, I left two comments and you posted one? Pathetic. Thank you for letting me voice my opinion and opposition to conservatism. You guys are just about as fair and balanced as Fox News. So Billie, Heritage will not post my comments. This is the 3rd time in this blog alone. I have no ability to debate when they pick and choose which comments to post so I have no choice then to leave this blog.

      What i was trying to say is this.. Letting companies fail, having job losses at a million a month, ensuring unemployment at over 15% and going into a depression is the Billie/conservative solution for the recession that happened before Obama took office. That's what Billie just said above. Conservatives assume the free market will just "fix itself"- what the heck does that even mean!? What a great policy driven agenda! Conservatism is the real problem with this country and always has been. That's all I need to write. Billie, you can continue the talking points. I mean this will full clarity, you are beyond help and reason. I'm dissapointed that people like you look at things one way and then go out to vote. This country is becoming a joke thanks to websites like this. You can have all the last words you want. I know better then to waste my time with someone who had no intention to reason with anything. Toodles!

    77. Zack says:

      Oh Heritage, thanks for being fair. I'm not used to it. Still doesn't make up for over 10 comments that Heritage has already not posted this year alone.

    78. Billie says:

      I'm sorry you depend on government over the freedom of your neighbor or fellow American.

    79. Billie says:

      Freedom in a civil society takes personal responsibility, facing and dealing with ones own consequences. I'm guessing by your writing you don't live up to,

      Same with businesses. They set the rules and standards, they are held accountable. The only time government is needed is for hmm, maybe nothing?

      You clearly show a tendency towards government dependency and only you can change that. Wish you had more faith in your fellow man, your fellow American.

    80. Zack says:

      I'm sorry you depend talking points, your ignorance of legislation, the economy, a failed free market, failed conservative policies and the Heritage Foundation. I work in a private sector company, and never took a penny of government assistance, but I'm intelligent enough to realize that government is needed to assist some people in this broken country, and people like you will continue to vote everyone down the wrong path. I'm free as free can be. I love this country and would die for it many times over. I believe in economic growth, not repeating the same "drowning government" policies that we have had for so long now. That's the difference between you and me. Im rational, realistic and understand why we have government. You are ignorant to reality beyond reason.

    81. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "Freedom in a civil society takes personal responsibility, facing and dealing with ones own consequences. I’m guessing by your writing you don’t live up to"

      -No, my writing is economic and legislative history(FACTS). Again, how does anything I write, have to do with dealing with my own consequences? When you continue to come out with extremely idiotic remarks you should back them up. What exactly are you talking about? You wrote, so now explain?

      you stated-

      "Same with businesses. They set the rules and standards, they are held accountable. The only time government is needed is for hmm, maybe nothing?"

      -Oh wait, I thought it was the government that set the rules and standards for businesses. Is that not what you said ealier in this one-sided debate? So now you say it was business that set their own rules and standards now? First you blamed government that was never there in the first plave and now you say that businesses control themselves? And when a business does fail, the government is available through federal revenue to avoid millions of job losses, a depression. Again, did you want a depression? Did you want Monopolies, high povery, higher unemployment, a total meltdown? Is that what you would like to happen? Let every failing private sector business in this country fail and do nothing to combat the problem? Leave it all to the "free market"? Is that what you want? If so, and if you were in charge of making large decision in this country I would personally make it a new "rule" to have you deported from our county for being nothing close to American and not understanding american values to the slighest extent. No offense, but I will not tolerate people like you letting millions of people loss their jobs and risking a second depression. That's why I do not trust conservatives, let alone their policies that keep failing over and over and over.

      you stated-

      "You clearly show a tendency towards government dependency and only you can change that. Wish you had more faith in your fellow man, your fellow American"

      -You act as if you know anything about me. As if I depend on government for everything, or on welfare, or received federal loans, grants, etc. I have earned everything I have from what I do. Many people in this country are not as fortunate as I am and need government assistance which you will never, ever understand.

      -I work for a private sector job, brought $90,000 in profits from november of 2009, I bring revenue to the company, to the banks my customers receive loans from, very sucessful marketing this year alone, keeping us #1 in market share for the last 6 months, Ive brought this company out of the pit because of my own actions and my own responsibility without ever having a dime from the government. Im contributing to the free market economy as well as provided work for people I have personally employeed. Since you have been on constant personal attacks and judgement toward me, what exactly have you provided for the economy? Have you ever used public transportation, highways, government grants, will you refuse social security when you should get it?, medicare, medicade, will you refuse government assistance if you are in a natural disaster?

      Your ignorance sickens me. Government is not perfect so you wish to abolish it? Your so far off from reality I don't know where to begin.

      The bottom line is when and if conservatives run this country again, they will put us deeper in the hole. You think november or 2012 will be something magical if conservatives take over? Your blind my friend. Truly blind. President Obama walked into a huge pile of crap that was created before he got where he is. The right-wing blame game is old as dirt. You seem to be the one that can't think for himself. You seem to not understand personal responsibility. Your writing and beliefs are far from the heart of this country.

    82. Zack says:

      After reviewing this deabte, i have noticed that you have yet to provide a single source, factual evidence, numbers, statistics, government-private sector market share/ratios', defecits, surplus, congressional majority/minority, actual bills, economic history including unemployment, previous administrations, oversight, regulation, deregulation, regulatory reform, housing market share, banking regulations, etc. Not a single reference to any of those things. Do you really think your "talking points' are enough? Maybe for you, not for educated people like me that do care about our countries future by understanding the failures of the past. I believe in freedom and individual responsibility as much if not more then anybody in this country. Your assumptions are dead wrong and your understanding of the economy and free market/government structure is close to absent. So, more talking points? Bring it on.

    83. Billie says:

      Your intelligence weakens the abilities of mankind.

      I don't call freedom and independence from government personal assistance and control, the wrong path. You are as free as free can be? But you don't want anyone else to be? That is what you are saying when you insist people turn to government for their domestic or personal reasons that you have the ability to take care of without government. Gosh. Zack. That makes you a hypocrite. Or selfish, or racist.

      Why aren't you helping people off government assistance instead of proclaiming with pride, you are not on? Again, no dignity for your fellow mankind. You can prove I'm wrong by expanding the bush tax cuts for job growth and cut all costs to personal special interests, for the expense should go to those persons interested.

    84. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "Your intelligence weakens the abilities of mankind"

      -please, please explain.

      -and your intelligence is filled with talking points. no sources, no facts, no numbers, no legislative, economic history, nothing. Do conservative, partisan, unsourced talking points account for intelligence these days?

      you stated-

      "I don’t call freedom and independence from government personal assistance and control, the wrong path. You are as free as free can be? But you don’t want anyone else to be?"

      -the wrong path is easy to describe, the conservatives that you voted for that put us in this recession. That's the wrong path that we have already been traveling down. You want to drown the government. Does that clear it up for you? And exactly how, in any way, does my what I have commented upon show that I don't want anyone else to be free? that is a very, very idiotic statement. Where are you coming up with this ignorant stuff?

      you stated-

      "That is what you are saying when you insist people turn to government for their domestic or personal reasons that you have the ability to take care of without government. Gosh. Zack. That makes you a hypocrite. Or selfish, or racist."

      -where in any part of this debate did I mention for people to turn to government for their domestic or personal reasons? You can't just make things up as you go. I dare you to find the slightest evidence as to where that was written..no no, go ahead and find just one statement where I said that. This entire debate has been about the necessity of government to provide help to the failed private sectors and failed tax cuts to the wealthy. That is all this was ever about. Your making up information as you go adn constantly changing the subject. Your arguemens are starting to get really weird. You call me a Hypocrite, how?. Selfish, because I employee 10 people in a very sucessful private sector business? Racist? Haha, wow, your debate has become extremely pathetic. Is that all you can come up with now, Racist? Another personal attack, and very strong at that. Nice class and character you got their!

    85. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "Why aren’t you helping people off government assistance instead of proclaiming with pride, you are not on? Again, no dignity for your fellow mankind.

      -again, where are you coming up with this stuff? Is employing 10 people ensuring income, and avoiding possible unemployment for those people a bad thing? Is hiring two employees that now work in the warehouse, that had unemployment checks for three months before working full time here not helping people off government assistance? Is providing well benefits to all employees a bad thing? And what pride? Your so interested in my personal life and keep assuming who I am and what I do, I responded to that ignorance childlike behaviour by telling you about my, job, success and metioned having no need for government assistance myself. I understand where government is needed. You seem to want to abolish all government.

      -Anyways, I though you hate government, but now your saying people need government assistance? You are all over the place! It's like debating two different people! I have no dignity for mankind? haha. I can clearly see now that you have realized you got demolished in this debate a long time ago, that your only choice is to now use personal attacks and jumbled up assumptions about someone you know nothing about.

      you stated-

      "You can prove I’m wrong by expanding the bush tax cuts for job growth and cut all costs to personal special interests, for the expense should go to those persons interested."

      -hahahaha. No, the bush tax cuts for the wealthy have already proved themselves wrong for the last 8 years, along with many failed conservaive national and foreign policies. Please, tell me what positive effect these "tax cuts" have had on the economy? Tricke down? Is adding over 2.5 trillion to the national debt proving your wrong? Are conservative immune from special interest? Enron, Haliburton, Oil rig industry? I'm against special interest too but you seem to only assume this Obama Administration is the only culprit. Again, one-sided.

    86. Zack says:

      -The best part about conservative debating the tax cuts is that we have had them for over 8 years now. You say we should extend bush tax cuts when they have shown no economic growth and adding trillions to our debt? Will the tax cuts all the sudden start working if we let them extend? The administration has already iniated tax credits to small business and has not increased taxes a dime on over 93% of the country. Tax cuts for the wealthy will go up 3%. Which part of that 3% will destroy jobs, the economy? Please let me know?

      -I can see that im getting to you but this is much, much too fun!

      It's weird, I provide evidence and admit that both parties and well as this administration have had failures and understand, through study and research, as well as having a degree that many problem we currenly face are due to the private sector and conservative policy and your response is all talking points and personal attacks? How do you expect anyone to respect you or take you for anything credible? Is this really all you have?

      -If you must, call me racist, tell me I have no dignity, call me selfish. Heck, say whatever you want. You lost this debate like 2 weeks back, but you insist on digging yourself deeper in that hole. You really are the perfect "model" or the Heritage follower!

      Now, facts, sources and evidence as to how the bush tax cuts actually worked? Just one thing? Or will you provide more talking points?

    87. Zack says:

      So Heritage, my comment that I made on Wednesday, September 8th was within the rules of aproval and moderation and within length(shorter then the blog itself), yet you once again, for the 3rd time in this blog alone, decided to not post my comment. Why are you guys such cowards? Lets hear the excuse this time…? I assume Billie calling me a racist is not a form of incivility or a personal attack? You moderators are about as one-sided and pathetic as the blogs themselves!

    88. Billie says:

      Don't blame Heritage, Zack! It's been a month! An anniversary of sorts? Haha.

      Appreciate the fact that any of our comments get posted! Speaking of, I wrote one last night that I thought made it, but looking now, see it hasn't as of yet?

      … but you don't agree in "free" economic growth. You want tax payers pulling the wagon instead of the free economy held accountable to pull it themselves as they have before government intervened.

      You say you never took a penny of government assistance, why do you think others should? How ever you got by in life, why can't you have respect to see all can according to their individual abilities? We are a nation of people who help each other, it's never the governments job as their authority misleads and coerces people like you, Zack to think it is.

    89. Billie says:

      Zack stated: After reviewing this debate, i have noticed that you have yet to provide a single source, factual evidence, numbers, statistics, government-private sector market share/ratios’, defects, surplus, congressional majority/minority, actual bills, economic history including unemployment, previous administrations, oversight, regulation, deregulation, regulatory reform, housing market share, banking regulations, etc. Not a single reference to any of those things.

      There is no debate against your research results and your admittance of government overreach. Redundancy is ignorance. This is a debate as to how the results came to be and why they continue to go unresolved, which you sweetie, have given no insight to.

      Zack: Do you really think your “talking points’ are enough?

      They must be or we wouldn't have been going for a month…

      Zack …and your understanding of the economy and free market/government structure is close to absent.

      right! The economy and free market need no government structure or they're not

      considered "free." The way I see it Zack, the more government aids the 'lives" and takes over the business sector of the people, the less people will know what to do and how to do it for themselves.

      Many people have lost their understanding of American freedom and it isn't introduced or inspired to most immigrants of third world countries. The American government wasn't established to take care of the people, it was established to protect the freedoms, liberties and equal rights of the people. Taking that into account, your intelligence should be able to perceive where government is not needed and where freedom is being removed.

      The real difference between you and I, you believe in government dependency, I believe in freedom and the inner strength and integrity of mankind. I don't see any less of mankind as you seem to point out, need government dependency.

    90. Billie says:

      Please don't presume to know conservatives. I've commented on where government is needed and respected in the areas of protection and safety of the peoples right to live free under civil law. The government is expected to protect us from foreign and domestic enemies. It's not there to pay for your cancer treatment that limits the care much more than private insurance, only leading you to a painful, suffering to death. Please Zack, if you love or respect mankind, you don't support government interfering in the freedom of private, personal life no matter where it's at… except the elderly who rightfully deserve social security, medicare, medicaid, whatever they're being denied today.

    91. Zack says:

      Your right, this debate has gone on for too long. I can't seem to help you understand. And your argument keeps going back and forth. I have had to correct you over and over. You have not provided anythng but talking points so it's pointless to continue. I can easily be the better man and give up. I already won the debate anyways, so now im just kicking stones. Take the last word, or rather last talking points. Peace out!

    92. Billie says:

      Zack says: …I can easily be the better man and give up.

      I don't doubt you may be "better" at something, but you don't even come close to a real man. They have inner strength, positive qualities and inspire others to know their own. Real men lives up to and pays the consequences their freedom of choice results in.

    93. Zack says:

      again Billy, with the personal attacks. Is that really all you have? Lets stick to the basics. What have the Bush Tax Cuts done to help the economy? Factual evidence? Sources? Do you have anything?

    94. Billie says:

      Zack says: What have the Bush Tax Cuts done to help the economy?

      Answer: Kept me and everybody else who is, employed and off the list of government dependents.

    95. Zack says:

      "Kept me and everybody else who is, employed and off the list of government dependents"

      really? Is that the best you can do?

      -you tell me why people were losing 700,000 jobs a month back in 2008, under Bush when these "tax cuts" were in full effect?

      -you tell me why unemployment went up 3.1%, under Bush when these "tax cuts" were in full effect?

      -you tell me how these "tax cuts" will not add over 2.5 trillion to the national debt by 2014 and trillions more if we extend them without paying for them. who is paying for these tax cuts? tell me. who?

      -what jobs did they create during the bush administration?

      -what jobs are they creating now?

      -are you that ignorant to still believe in trickle down!?

      -Do you have factual evidence, sources, percentages, graphs, numbers, jobs created to back up your statement?

      -Do you enjoy getting demolished everytime you attempt to debate me?

      Not trying to sound egotistical but seriously, will you ever provide any facts whatsoever? anything?

      -all you know is how to demonize government without any facts to back anything up.

      -President Obama has cut taxes for over 95% of the country including YOU. The administration has already issued tax breaks to small business. What have conservatives done? Will extending the "tax cuts" automatically start helping the economy even though they have been in effect for over 8 years now? Do you have any credible answers? I think at this point you have dodged at least 60-70 questions I have asked, while I have answered every single one of yours?

      But if you insist on getting embarrased everytime you comment, please go ahead!

    96. Billie says:

      you tell me why people were losing 700,000 jobs a month back in 2008, under Bush when these “tax cuts” were in full effect? Democrats spending and Obama doing nothing to "change'" it.

      -you tell me why unemployment went up 3.1%, under Bush when these “tax cuts” were in full effect? Again, democrat spending and Obama doing nothing to 'change' it.

      you tell me how these “tax cuts” will not add over 2.5 trillion to the national debt by 2014 and trillions more if we extend them without paying for them. who is paying for these tax cuts? tell me. who? Tax cuts aren't payment Zack. Tax cuts are reduced taxes taken away from earnings of what's already been made. For what purpose is all this money needed, progressive one?

      Gosh Zack settle down,

      what jobs did they create during the bush administration?

      -what jobs are they creating now? Who's they? government? Back in bush's era businesses could hire at their own free will.

      -are you that ignorant to still believe in trickle down!? I'll let you know when I'm unemployed.

      Do you have factual evidence, sources, percentages, graphs, numbers, jobs created to back up your statement? Factual evidence is my word of observation. The rest is relevant when it is.

      Do you enjoy getting demolished everytime you attempt to debate me?

      I do enjoy humoring you.

      Not trying to sound egotistical but seriously, will you ever provide any facts whatsoever? anything? You have written to be oblivious to facts, Zack.

      Government doesn't belong where mankind can do for themselves. Something you lack as a man backs me and that's dignity.

      It's funny you notice I get a tax cut and I haven't? All these tax breaks to small businesses? hmm, are you an obama insider? You have no credible answers or questions.

    97. Zack says:

      I stated-

      "you tell me why people were losing 700,000 jobs a month back in 2008, under Bush when these “tax cuts” were in full effect?"

      you stated-

      "Democrats spending and Obama doing nothing to “change’” it."

      -nothing to change it? job creation in the private sector has gone from 700,000 lost under bush in january of 2009 to 67,000 gained under Obama in september of 2010. Were 67,000 jobs not created in september? Were 700,000 jobs not lost under Bush? Do you not see a change in jobs? The stimulus was effective, not perfect. A difference of 767,000 jobs is not a change? I assume numbers mean nothing to you right? And you tell me what would conservative policies would have done to combat job losses? Conservatives didn't want the stimulus, you didn't want to save the auto industry. You didn't want any single measure of regulatory reform. Your legislation proves it. Now, you tell me how conservatives would "change" anything by doing exactly what they would have done if in power, NOTHING. Without the stimulus, why wouldn't unemployment be over 14%? Why wouldn't job losses still be in the hundreds of thousands? Your argument holds no water. Its all "talking points". The "change" is in the numbers, but again, numerical evidence doesn't seem to work with you.

      I stated-

      "you tell me why unemployment went up 3.1%, under Bush when these “tax cuts” were in full effect?"(correction, unemployment went up 3.4% under Bush)

      you stated-

      "Again, democrat spending and Obama doing nothing to ‘change’ it"

      -define "change"? did you expect unemployment to magically and rapidly go down in the midst of a recession? How would conservative policies have dropped the unemployment rate? It seemed to go up under conservative power, did it not? unemployment has gone up 1.9% under Obama comparred to 3.4% under Bush and it has not gone up for the last 3 months. The current rate is way too high, but it has increased half as much comparred to when Bush was President, did it not? Your idea of "change" is fixing everything immediatley, that's the problem with conservatives, your unrealistic. Again, what would conservative policies have done to lower the rate, aside from going higher by "letting the free market fix itself"?

    98. Zack says:

      I stated-

      "you tell me how these “tax cuts” will not add over 2.5 trillion to the national debt by 2014 and trillions more if we extend them without paying for them? who is paying for these tax cuts? tell me. who?"

      you stated-

      "Tax cuts aren’t payment Zack. Tax cuts are reduced taxes taken away from earnings of what’s already been made. For what purpose is all this money needed, progressive one?"

      -you didn't answer the question. once again, you dodged another question with "talking points" ANSWER the question. Who is paying for the tax cuts? Will they not add trillions to the national debt as they have already? For what purpose is all this money needed you asked? How about defense, transportation, education, medicare, medicade, homeland security, natural disasters, coast guard, regulatory reform for failed private sectors, police and fire departments. Should all those programs that need funding, just be abolished? Are all those programs "progressive" as you say? That's the other problem with conservaitves, they assume drop federal revenue to almost nothing and then complain about the defecit and increase to the national debt. Your hypocrits! And you constantly complain about debt and defecits and the entire time forgetting that at least 40% of that comes directly from conservative policies like (both bush tax cuts)! Yes, at least 40% of the current debt is from the very people you voted for.

    99. Zack says:

      you stated-

      "Gosh Zack settle down"

      -Oh, Im settled. Having researched and studied economics for over 8 years puts me at ease. Reading your comments and seeing the lack of economic understanding on your part just makes me dissapointed. I would rather combat people like you that voted for the very conseravtive policies that put us in this mess and wish to continue the same failed policies to keep us in this mess. It's truly astounding. I choose to aknowledge failed conseravtive policies instead of just attacking the establishment.

      I stated-

      "what jobs did they create during the bush administration?

      -what jobs are they creating now?

      you stated-

      "Who’s they? government? Back in bush’s era businesses could hire at their own free will"

      -again, what jobs were created during the Bush administration? And what businesses can't hire at their own free will now? Who cant Hire? What exactly are you trying to get at? And it makes it worse Billie, when you can't answer questions and keep asking me questions that I have already answered(with numbers and facts to back the answers up) ANSWER the question. Just one. Is it possible for you to just answer ONE question with ONE fact?

    100. Zack says:

      I stated-

      "are you that ignorant to still believe in trickle down!?"

      you stated-

      "I’ll let you know when I’m unemployed"

      -so 700,000 job losses a month and raising unemployment 3.4% under the bush tax cuts is ok because you are still employeed? Explain to me exactly just how the tax cuts actually helped the economy. Keep in mind, I have asked you that same question 3 times now. Any answers? And explain to me exactly just how trickle down has helped the economy? Companies are recording record profits and at the same time not hiring, yea that "trickle down" is working out really well huh? Any answers? Both Reagan and Bush praised trickle down, and they both, were able to double the national debt under that "trickle down" theory. Numbers are fun aren't they!

      I stated-

      "Do you have factual evidence, sources, percentages, graphs, numbers, jobs created to back up your statement?"

      you stated-

      "Factual evidence is my word of observation. The rest is relevant when it is"

      -so factual and numerical evidence is less credible then your opinion!? I don't think you even know what you are talking about at this point! The mere fact that you have not provided any of those things shows your lack of credibility in any debate regarding economics or legislative history.

    101. Zack says:

      I stated-

      "Do you enjoy getting demolished everytime you attempt to debate me?

      you stated-

      "I do enjoy humoring you"

      -nothing is funny about your ignorance of the economy. Infact, its rather scary that people like you vote.

      -I stated-

      "Not trying to sound egotistical but seriously, will you ever provide any facts whatsoever? anything?"

      you stated-

      "You have written to be oblivious to facts, Zack.

      Government doesn’t belong where mankind can do for themselves. Something you lack as a man backs me and that’s dignity"

      -oblivious? I provided facts, sources, legislative and economic history, numerical evidence. You provided nothing and your telling me that im oblivious to facts? And tell me exactly what mankind is not doing that the government shouldn't do? Specifics? Anything? Again with the personal attacks. Dignity? Your all over the place today! So a free market that is based on capitalism, monoplies and profit while screwing anyone that gets in the way to provide oppurtunity that is not there, is somehow comprised of dignity?

      you stated-

      "It’s funny you notice I get a tax cut and I haven’t?"

      -do you make over $200,000 individual or $250,000 houshold? If not, then yes, your taxes went down Under the Obama Administration, unless you live outside the U.S. Dont play stupid. I know the tax law, current rates and percentage decrease of federal taxes since early 2009. Dishonesty is that last thing you need right now.

      you stated-

      "All these tax breaks to small businesses? hmm, are you an obama insider?"

      -yes, the Obama Administration has already passed legislation that issues tax breaks and credits to small business. It already happened. Do you not follow congress or legislative activity? Most likely not.

      you stated-

      "You have no credible answers or questions"

      -No, you not only have no credibility by offering nothing but "talking points" with nothing to back up anything you say, at the same time you cant seem to answer one question I have asked on any blog on this website ever. Seriously, look at your comments? Nothing. And you tell me I have no credibility. Again Billie, stop hurting yourself. You will lose everytime. You really should try to research and study the economy a little more. Legislative and economic history. Have you ever bothered to do any of those things, or do you just rely on conservative media and the Heritage Foundation? If so, that truly is pitiful.

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