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  • Justice Under Holder: Let Gore Go But Crucify CIA

    Earlier this may, Attorney General Eric Holder testified before the House Judiciary Committee. He was questioned by former California Attorney General and Congressman Dan Lungren (R-CA) and former Texas trial judge, and Congressman Louis Gohmert (R-TX) about waterboarding and torture. Lungren and Gohmert both trapped Holder into admitting that successfully prosecuting our CIA personnel would be next to impossible. Watch:


    National Review Institute senior fellow Andy McCarthy wrote at the time:

    The Attorney General may perhaps want to take a look at the brief his Justice Department filed about three weeks ago in the Sixth Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals. Torture is a specific intent crime — both the Justice Department and the Third Circuit U.S. Court of Appeals have explained that a person cannot commit it unless he has the intent, motive and purpose to torture (i.e., inflict severe pain on) the victim. The question is not, as Holder claimed, whether it was “logical that the result of doing the act would have been to physically or mentally harm the person”? With a general intent crime, the adage is that people are deemed to intend the natural, logical consequences of their actions. But that’s not enough for specific intent crimes like torture. As Holder’s Justice Department put it (bold italics are mine):

    In any event, the actions you take to waterboard are essentially the same whether the one inflicting the treatment is a military interrogation-resistance trainer or a CIA interrogator. (I am not saying all waterboarding is the same, nor am I denying that some waterboarding — such as sadistically practiced by the Japanese in WWII — rises to the level or torture. I am talking here only about these two situations: U.S. military trainer and CIA interrogator.) If Holder is correct that the military trainer does not commit torture because it is not his intent to inflict severe pain but to “equip” our military to deal with what he calls “illegal acts,” then the CIA interrogator cannot be guilty of torture either since his intent is not to inflict severe pain but to collect life-saving information.

    McCarthy adds today:

    Investigations are about satisfying daunting legal standards, not mollifying an administration’s political base. Here, there is not just reasonable doubt that the interrogators engaged in imminent threats, intended to commit psychological torture, and caused prolonged, severe mental damage to the terrorist detainees. There is virtual certainty that they did not. Clearly, that is why the professional prosecutors who probed these cases over the last several years opted not to bring charges.

    When Al Gore clearly violated the law, Eric Holder found no controlling legal authority and shut down the case. Now, when the controlling legal authority clearly shows no violation of law, Holder has unleashed the prosecutors to go after the nation’s most crucial line of defense against terror. That is shameful.

    Posted in Security [slideshow_deploy]

    31 Responses to Justice Under Holder: Let Gore Go But Crucify CIA

    1. Dean- Texas/Alaska says:

      I experienced waterboarding as part of SEER training in the military. Uncomfortable to the max yes, torture no, and the only people who would consider it "torture" are those who hate America, and have now rendered that relatively humane method of obtaining critical lifesaving information void, by exposing secrets to our enemies.

    2. Roger S., Ma. says:

      Leave it to lawyers to take a thin slice of bologna, then find a razor to turn that one thin slice into 10 even thinner ones!

      What really gets me, however, is how incompetent the DOJ reasoning is even while they're trying to shove the camel through the needle's eye: The difference in the two torture situations mentioned has darned little to do with the doer's intent by itself, specific or general. One additional ingredient is required in reality, if not legality:

      I almost dare not say it for the risk of giving this idiot a better idea, but the Navy Seal is undergoing this training of his own free will, can stop his "torture" any time, including any further participation in the program if he's had enough. "Ill effects" are hardly more prejudicial than a bruised ego and maybe a return to his former pay grade. Moreover, he knows for a fact that all manner of precautions are in place to prevent any lasting harm, that in reality nobody is at that point in time out to kill or maim him. Presumably he himself wants as much of this experience as he can possibly take because he knows that in the line of duty he may encounter a situation where it will benefit him to have learned his limits.

      The enemy detainee is there against his will, knows and wants none of this, and has no expectation of benefiting from or even surviving the experience; unless, of course, he complies with his interrogator, in which case he is likely to be subjected some day, sooner or later, to severe sanctions from a different quarter. Whereas the Navy Seal takes his training session and is done, the enemy detainee is never "done", until the day he is released, or dies. Even if he has complied with his interrogator once, there is the constantly evident threat of having to submit again, without any foreseeable ending. He effectively must bear existence in a constant state of fear. Now, to my mind, that truly IS torture. Must be what "purgatory" is like.

      What part of this does Holder not understand? Or are they setting up a "beating of the dead horse" to distract from something else? What else could they be after, this time?

      With this administration, you never know.

    3. gmorris2@kc.rr.com says:

      dan lungren is a (R)

    4. Pingback: Holder trapped on ‘torture’ – osmoothie

    5. Michael Hoyes, VA says:

      To heck with Gore…and certainly the CIA agents who acted to PROTECT our nation should be left alone, but how about something a little closer to home? Fannie and Freedie…who knew what, when, and who did not do their jobs? Why has there not been an investigation into that fiasco, which was a prime reason for our economy being in the mess that it is?

    6. Michael Glover Sprin says:

      Eric Holder clearly does not have a clue what intent is.

      Where do these guys come from and what planet have they been living on.

      Honestly, I pray for this guy, because clearly he does not have a clue!

    7. John Roane Sarasota says:

      It seems apparent that Roger S., Ma. has never taken military team training whether Army, Navy, or Marine. If so he would have found the simulation very realistic, even if in the back of his mind he believed its only training they wouldn't kill me. Tell that to the many soldiers hurt or worse each year in just training.

      We endure so you may sleep easy each night. No need to thank us we don't do it just for you.

    8. Lebo, florida says:

      Yo Dean of Texas/Alaska,

      I was also introduced to the wonders of the water board during training.

      During that week I was beaten so badly and waterboared so much at the end, when all others went back to their units, I was sent to the hospital.

      In retrospect, I probably should have answered some of their questions…but I just tend to get a little "testy" when questioned in such a manner. Must be that Irish/Italian heritage.

      But now it's too Damn tough for the Terrorists. YGTBSM. What are they;

      "Terrorist Lite?" "Girly Terrorists?"

      "Sissy terrorists?"

      I'm totally OK now except for the voices in my head from space.

      BTW; At this point I feel DOJ is a joke, and clearly out of their minds.



    9. Dean- Texas/Alaska says:

      By " secrets," I mean our enemies now know that our "interogations" are humanely controlled, have limits. By exposing the details it's taken away the psychological unknown, and given a training point. Dan Lundgren is an (R), Holder is a (C) or (M). Holder is more interested in tearing down the pride of America, in weakening this nation, the "justice" he is seeking is that of a Jihadist.

    10. John - Kansas says:

      Abortion no problem….water boarding? never….

      the international community may not like us any more.

    11. Tim AZ says:

      If I were a CIA agent I would be collecting intelligence on this President and his administration and his accomplices in the House and Senate for a tell all book. I should think this could easily be used to proove intent for prosecutions of said bums for actual crimes against the United States of America and its citizenry. Yes I have a dream. How's that hope and change working out for you?

    12. Mike Rapkoch, Billin says:

      Shameful, yes, and so stupid it prompts the question: "What is Holder's intent." Given the law it cannot be to prosecute a provable, truly illegal act. Lack of proof of specific intent blasts this one out of the water before filing.

      Nor can it be overly zealous prosecution, for a prosecutor is bound by rules requiring circumspection in deciding whether to proceed with a prosecution. A prosecutor who knows going in that he lacks proof "beyond a reasonable doubt" MUST decline to file a case.

      Political motivations also violate the rules–even though it is done all the time.

      The greatest danger of this prosecution also gives strong clues as to Holder's intent. When viewing this case in light of the lefts: 1) weakening of the national defense by cutting vital programs; 2) a state department whose head travels about the world "apologizing" for her country for defending freedom; and, 3)leaders with a 60s mentality of "make love not war," a childish philosophy which is best understood as "ignore reality and hop into the sack," Holder's intent would seem to be to his part to so weaken the nation's defense capability as to virtually invite terrorist attacks, and encourage aggressive nations like North Korea to continue down the deadly alley of weapons acquisition–weapons pointed at us.

      Finally, with Obama and Congress choking the life out of the economy with governmenr borrowing and spending this looks like a single minded effort to destroy the nation these men and women swore to protect.


    13. Linda Carlsbad, CA says:

      I believe this isn't about prosecuting anyone. This is to scare anyone from going against this administration. Are you kidding me, I would take waterboarding anytime over what the terriorists would do to me. Look at Afganistan, they threatened their own people, if they voted to cut off their fingers. This administration is a joke, they are trying to keep everyone on edge, so we aren't paying attention to what they are really are up to!

    14. Ross writes, Brade says:

      Honor among thieves(who want to rob us of our God-given liberties, private properties, and sacred vote).

    15. Shelpicker, Florida says:

      The time is now. We need to throw the bums out and start over. How about Chapter 11 for the United States. Warm up the tar, get out the rails and pluck plenty of chickens. Start today and tomorrow will be sunny. Did you know that cash for clunkers is taxable for 2009. That 4500 dollars will probably put some in a higher tax bracket. Thanks again for the change B0.

    16. Jules Battlefield, M says:

      Holder, along with the rest of this administration, is giving the dumb masses who elected them much more than they bargained for, and they will pay for it via legislation removing the freedoms and liberties for all of us. This is just another step in killing America.

    17. Jeanne Stotler, wood says:

      I wonder how they will explain the next 9/11 to the American people because we did NOT find out their future plans??

    18. sandra robles kerner says:

      "When Al Gore clearly violated the law, Eric Holder found no controlling legal authority and shut down the case. Now, when the controlling legal authority clearly shows no violation of law, Holder has unleashed the prosecutors to go after the nation’s most crucial line of defense against terror. That is shameful."

      Might I add, when the Black Panthers clearly violated the law, by intimidating voters with black uniforms and billy sticks in Philly, Eric Holder FOUND AND HAD controlling legal authority AND shut down the case anyway. This behavior is not only shameful…it is ILLEGAL, treasonous as well as a slap in the face of freedom and justice in America. He should be tried and punished for committing crimes against America.

    19. jack kuhn , maryland says:

      Where are their priorities , AMERICANS losing jobs,people trying to put food on their table,playing catch-up on their bills.WE are fighting a war and AMERICANS are being killed , those in command are asking for more troops,and all they can think about is what somebody did to our enemies some years ago , and the information they got, DID save AMERICAN lives

    20. Lynn B. DeSpain says:

      Why is it, that in this Nation we are not allowed to see the tortures done by terrorist to innocents around the World? All other Countries see it in dying color, but not us. Do out leaders think us to weak or soft to see the gruesome results of these Terrorist Inquisitions? No, I believe that if American's saw these things, we would want tit for tat on all captured Terrorist! Then and only then would any would be Terrorist think twice about their methods of torture to anyone, anywhere. After all, we are the Word's capturers of Terrorist!

      Let us see the Truth of all sides, then ask for an honest decision!


    21. mary triola new jers says:


    22. James Kirkland, Bato says:

      I just spent time on a comment that was germane and very respectful. I submitted it and as of the past 30 minutes, it is not published. I ask a question that I wanted an answer to, why was it not published on comments?

    23. James Kirkland, Bato says:

      Please explain what you mean by "moderation"

    24. James Kirkland, Bato says:

      Are you just another robotic organization or do you have humans operating this site. I respectfully ask what you meant by "moderation" and your reply: "Your comment is currently undergoing moderation"!

      You people solicited me and I recently subscribed to the Heritage Foundation and your newsletters.

      If you are not interested in communicating then I do not need a relationship with such an organization.

    25. Roger S., Ma. says:

      John…Florida: See my 2 comments on "Morning Bell: The Left's War on the CIA." I'm actually on your side, and I DO THANK you.

      In my comment here I was only trying to point out how ludicrous Holder's arguments really were. Somehow such incredible incompetence always gets to me — a real fault of mine!

      Yes, the training IS grueling and often excruciatingly painful, and more than once you wish it were over, but that's still different from not knowing if it will ever be. You might as well call that torture; it is, even if it could be much worse.

      Do I have a problem with that? NO! I say, good for us! Especially if it saves our lives! –As I wrote elsewhere, if our enemies have a problem with our alleged "violation" of their alleged "human rights", they have a simple remedy: don't attack us!

      Exasperating, though, Holder's attempt to weasel out of a losing argument by getting in ever deeper with his false legal BS. Imagine we're actually paying him and DOJ for this crap! It's hard to put up with. – He and DOJ should be sticking to something that clearly needs doing and that they can maybe handle, like ACORN or the NewBP! Make themselves useful!


    26. Mike Mancuso, San Jo says:

      We should let our top generals and admirals direct our wars and security. They need the best information and the grace of God to guide them. I don't see where Eric Holder fits in this scenario. The public should be reminded frequently of his past poor judgement. He will ultimately make Obama look bad as he and his people stumble through the prosecution of the CIA.

    27. Lee says:

      I missed something. What did Al Gore do….this time?

    28. Louis L Cesar F Levy says:

      I keep telling you guys that the only reason why leaders go against their own countries and citizens (remember this libyan terrorist released for so called humanitarian reasons) is that an Intelligent force lurking where most of us don't see, including our leaders, suggest those acts in order to destroy us. These beings do not dare consider any scrupule;they are coldly pursuing their goal:use the citizens one against the other, whether leader, opposition or else politician in order to succeed in tearing down the West, especially the US. WHEN WILL MOST OF US UNDERSTAND and REFUSE this SUBTLE AND DEADLY ATTACK? That of where the least expected:in the minds of those who found themselves in Positions Of Actors.

    29. Louis L Cesar F Levy says:

      A loud voice can sometimes help understand that other SILENT yet very effective in its suggestions to acts in ways against your own good. This SILENT voice is SUBTLE and more than Smart;its technic is the use of your own logic with slight variations. Identities and Simularities are very hard to differenciate, yet they are not the same!

    30. Bj, Ft Myers, Fl says:

      If Eric holder can find no evidence of voter intimitation when the Black Panthers stand in front of a polling place to intimitate voters in a black uniform and carring clubs, and this group is a known Black Supremacist. What would he do if a white supremacist, say the kkk did the same thing. There would be bloody hell to pay. Same crime, different race. Where is the DOJ. Obviously, both are wrong but under Holder and this administration only one ( the later) would be prosecuted.

    31. Jerry from Chicago says:

      This is the same Eric Holder that would not prosecute the Black Panthers standing out side of an election voting place with clubs during Mr. Obama's election. This was a clear attempt at voter intimidation.

      Now, that Mr. Obama's government run health care plan has run into a firestorm of protest. The Obama administration must divert the public's attention with some distration. What better than their familar targets of Bush, Chaney and the CIA?

      What I think would provide for a better distraction would be an investigation into the backgrounds of each of the 36 various Obama "czars", starting with the "Diversity Czar". It seems that the title may be a little misleading, since the "Diversity Czar" has been put in charge of determining "fairness" in public broadcasting. In other words, looking for ways to muzzle talk radio programs and news networks critical of Obama and his policies. From what I have read from this guy's writings and heard from his public statements, he is another one of Saul Alinsky's Army of radicle socialists.

      Mr. Obama has three dozen of these people he has put in charge of various areas of government. They don't report to Congress, or the America people, only to Obama. No one knows what they are doing or what their backgrounds are. I say open the windows and let's see these people in the light of day.

      What do you say, Mr. Holder?

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